Obama destroys another neighborhood.

[kish2]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_256021.html


Subisidized housing destroys neighborhoods. When I am named Commissioner of the universe I am going to do away with HUD. Why spend billions on housing for people that already destroyed their own neighborhoods?
As soon as the hoodrats move into the neighborhood they destroy the schools and crime always goes up. Then the good people that originally lived in the neighborhood leave. The result is a ghetto.

[Senusret I]

Obama is of peace....always.

[KSig RC]

So it's really a legal imperative to build "affordable housing" in "affluent areas" now? That seems like the most un-American thing possible, doesn't it? Property values (and, thus, apartment rent etc.) should be a market function, and one of the last pure ones left.

Integration is a good thing, clearly, but this doesn't change the underlying problems at all - in fact, it might exacerbate them. Instead of changing the area code distribution, let's work on changing the number of minorities who find themselves in the upper reaches of the wealth curve. I suppose there will be ancillary benefit (presumably better education for those who move into the new housing), but that seems like a LOT of work for very marginal gain. Is this even a "baby step" so to speak? Shouldn't we focus on larger issues?

Besides this - is there any evidence that forced integration like this actually works to positive effect?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

So it's really a legal imperative to build "affordable housing" in "affluent areas" now? That seems like the most un-American thing possible, doesn't it? Property values (and, thus, apartment rent etc.) should be a market function, and one of the last pure ones left.

Integration is a good thing, clearly, but this doesn't change the underlying problems at all - in fact, it might exacerbate them. Instead of changing the area code distribution, let's work on changing the number of minorities who find themselves in the upper reaches of the wealth curve. I suppose there will be ancillary benefit (presumably better education for those who move into the new housing), but that seems like a LOT of work for very marginal gain. Is this even a "baby step" so to speak? Shouldn't we focus on larger issues?

Besides this - is there any evidence that forced integration like this actually works to positive effect?

I don't think so. And what's going to stop current residents from leaving and forming new communities? That'll make this entire initiative moot.

I don't like the look of this.

[kish2]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I don't think so. And what's going to stop current residents from leaving and forming new communities? That'll make this entire initiative moot.

I don't like the look of this.

Of course they will leave. Who would want to stay after the schools are destroyed, crime increases and the neighborhood is covered with litter and grafitti?

Even George Jefferson moved to the big apartment in the sky as soon as he got some money.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by kish2

Of course they will leave. Who would want to stay after the schools are destroyed, crime increases and the neighborhood is covered with litter and grafitti?

Even George Jefferson moved to the big apartment in the sky as soon as he got some money.

I sure would hate to see a city destroyed by grafitti. Thank God for school systems like the one you went through.

[kish2]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I sure would hate to see a city destroyed by grafitti. Thank God for school systems like the one you went through.

You probably like grafitti, crime, and lousy schools.

People like you don't care about grafitti because you have no pride.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by kish2

Of course they will leave. Who would want to stay after the schools are destroyed, crime increases and the neighborhood is covered with litter and grafitti?

Even George Jefferson moved to the big apartment in the sky as soon as he got some money.

So you admit that the problem is linked to poverty? Like I told you before (madmax) there are poor Whites, Latinos, Blacks, etc. living in ghettos or poor neighborhoods so stop trying to attach race to this argument. I can name some ghettos in Philly where poor Whites live and these areas look no different from where poor Blacks live and have many of the same issues like crime. In case you didn't know, White folks can be thugs too. I have been in these poor White neighborhoods I'm refering to (when I was younger) and when I saw a group of young White boys together (late at night) looking like they were up to no good (and they usually were), I crossed the street. Research that.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

So you admit that the problem is linked to poverty? Like I told you before (madmax) there are poor Whites, Latinos, Blacks, etc. living in ghettos or poor neighborhoods so stop trying to attach race to this argument. I can name some ghettos in Philly where poor Whites live and these areas look no different from where poor Blacks live. Research that.

Race is a correlate of social class and poverty.

Blacks are disproportionately poor.

Black and Hispanic poverty is documented to be substantially different than, and arguably worse than, white poverty in terms of the lack of inter- and intragenerational mobility, among other things.

These sentiments and "truths" are the foundation for many initiatives and programs. "We" can't support the above statements when it suits "us" but disagree with them when someone like madmax says them in a fashion to get a rise out of people.

[kish2]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

So you admit that the problem is linked to poverty? Like I told you before (madmax) there are poor Whites, Latinos, Blacks, etc. living in ghettos or poor neighborhoods so stop trying to attach race to this argument. I can name some ghettos in Philly where poor Whites live and these areas look no different from where poor Blacks live and have many of the same issues like crime. In case you didn't know, White folks can be thugs too. I have been in these poor White neighborhoods I'm refering to (when I was younger) and when I saw a group of young White boys together (late at night) looking like they were up to no good (and they usually were), I crossed the street. Research that.

Poverty is linked to the problem but poverty is not the cause, it is the effect.


Are you from N. Philly? Just look at all the professional athletes from that neighborhood. Most of them are millionares and they are still criminals. Eddie Griffin(NBA criminal), Aaron Mckie(arrested last year), Marvin Harrison(shot a guy last summer), Dionte Christman( arrested this summer). What is their excuse?


http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/r...ent?oid=285317

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Besides this - is there any evidence that forced integration like this actually works to positive effect?

There was a successfully integrated housing complex in either Chicago or St. Louis years ago. It worked because residents could not tell (so they claimed) whether their neighbor was middle class or poor.

It proved what many of us already know, which is that poor neighborhoods are run down and criminogenic, not because of the failed efforts of the majority of the residents. Given better living and crime fighting resources, poorer neighborhoods do not differ that much from high income neighborhoods. Law abiding and tax paying citizens generally want the same things regardless of whether they can afford it.

Things like this work in small doses. Despite the shock value of it all, it will most likely be implemented in small doses and to very little fanfair.

This society is class and race segregated by chance (city planning, districting, schooling/zoning, etc.) and by choice. It is impossible to impact the chance without interfering with the choice.

[kish2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

There was a successfully integrated housing complex in either Chicago or St. Louis years ago. It worked because residents could not tell (so they claimed) whether their neighbor was middle class or poor.

It proved what many of us already know, which is that poor neighborhoods are run down and criminogenic, not because of the failed efforts of the majority of the residents. Given better living and crime fighting resources, poorer neighborhoods do not differ that much from high income neighborhoods. Law abiding and tax paying citizens generally want the same things regardless of whether they can afford it.

Things like this work in small doses. Despite the shock value of it all, it will most likely be implemented in small doses and to very little fanfair.

This society is class and race segregated by chance (city planning, districting, schooling/zoning, etc.) and by choice. It is impossible to impact the chance without interfering with the choice.

What was the neighborhood that was supposidly successful? You said years ago? How about today?

Small doses of success is not success when you average in the large scale failures.


I don't believe that people in the poor neighborhoods want the same things as people in affluent neighborhoods. The people in those hoods don't even pick up the garbage on their front steps. Half of their kids don't even go to school. Lack of money is not the cause, it is the effect.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by kish2

What was the neighborhood that was supposidly successful? You said years ago? How about today?

Small doses of success is not success when you average in the large scale failures.

So, you agree with me.

Don't bang your head on the wall with me, madmax. LOL. I deal with much better instigators regarding these topics everysingleday.

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by kish2

What was the neighborhood that was supposidly successful? You said years ago? How about today?

Small doses of success is not success when you average in the large scale failures.


I don't believe that people in the poor neighborhoods want the same things as people in affluent neighborhoods. The people in those hoods don't even pick up the garbage on their front steps. Half of their kids don't even go to school. Lack of money is not the cause, it is the effect.

And this is your problem Madmax. You might be able to have an intelligent conversation about this topic if you weren't so busy trying to be racist. It's clear that you've done SOME research on this topic but it's also clear that you haven't done enough and that you don't care to research everything, just those points that appear to back up your comments. It is absolutely false to conclude that there aren't hard working people in poor neighborhoods and to conclude that most of these people do not want what most of us want. You are really showing your ignorance here regarding this topic. It is so obvious that you can only do research and read articles on the subject, but know nothing about the reality. And these neighborhoods are also very diverse (which you obviously have no clue about). Where else can you find people who work 2-3 jobs to make ends meet, welfare recipients, home owners, school teachers, honor roll students, strict parents, not so strict parents, etc. etc. all living on one street? In the low income neighborhoods in cities and most of these people are just as afraid of the crime they hear about, as suburbanites.

Now you might have made some good points but you've also made way too many generalizations to be taken seriously. All of those areas you named in Philly also have middle class neighborhoods and calling all of North Philly the badlands is certainly not accurate. There is a particular neighborhood in North Philly that is infamously known as the badlands due to high crime. However, there are also neighborhoods in North Philly where the middle class live and thrive. So my problem with you is not researching and telling the whole story. Stop with the generalizations and racial comments and we can indeed have an intelligent conversation regarding this topic, and Philly which I see you love to talk about. Oh and I'm still waiting for the list of schools with 14-15 full time cops. I'm sure that the city cannot afford such a thing so please enlighten us.

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by kish2

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_256021.html


Subisidized housing destroys neighborhoods. When I am named Commissioner of the universe I am going to do away with HUD. Why spend billions on housing for people that already destroyed their own neighborhoods?
As soon as the hoodrats move into the neighborhood they destroy the schools and crime always goes up. Then the good people that originally lived in the neighborhood leave. The result is a ghetto.