If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[anonymouse42]

would you guys also say that your GLO brotherhood/sisterhood is stronger then the military brotherhood?

I wouldn't say stronger, but actually, my chapter has several vets (which is a really high number given that our campus is tiny and has very few vets, and Greek life is rather unpopular), and every one of them says that our organization is the only place they have felt similar bonds to those created in the military.

And no, we don't haze AT ALL. So there goes that theory.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

haha...i found the last few posts quite interesting. first of all, you might not believe this but i'm actually one of the more rational ones. i rarely hazed people except to get a point across and most pledges thanked me after they crossed because they told me they understood the points i was making.

Going back to this comment...

You say most pledges thanked you. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say that 90% of them thought that what you did meant something, and they really appreciated it. That sounds like a good number. But let's not forget that 40% of the pledge class dropped, and clearly didn't appreciate it. Let's pretend you have a pledge class of 10 to start. 4 of them leave. Of the 6 left, 1 of them hated it and didn't enjoy being yelled at, but made it through the process anyway. That leaves 5 members of the class that actually found a meaning in it. Half. That's a pretty low number if you ask me. And not worth it.

[Ghostwriter]

Hazing really took off after WWI when the GI's came back from overseas and attended colleges. They wanted to take what they learned in boot camp and apply it to their brotherhoods. Most Fraternities were founded earlier than this timeframe and hazing was not a part of their founding.

I was hazed a long time ago and it did nothing for me. It kind of makes for interesting conversation amongst alums but it did not make me a stronger brother. It always seemed that the ones who hazed the worse were the slackers and did nothing constructive for the chapter. As a pledge trainer I concentrated on building a cohesive pledge class and having them work closely with each other and interact with the brotherhood. Learn the history, learn the lore, learn about the brothers, be true to your family, God, brotherhood and country. You don't have to do push ups or sit ups to accomplish this.

As an alum, as you say you are, you may subject yourself to being kicked permanently out of many Fraternities for any such activities. Ask yourself if it is worth it.

[moe.ron]

would you guys also say that your GLO brotherhood/sisterhood is stronger then the military brotherhood?

Dude, fraternities are not trained to go out to wars. It's two totally different concept. A fraternity is supposed to supplement a gentleman's educational experience.

[Forgotten Zeta]

[quote=Ghostwriter;1791453]As a pledge trainer I concentrated on building a cohesive pledge class and having them work closely with each other and interact with the brotherhood. Learn the history, learn the lore, learn about the brothers, be true to your family, God, brotherhood and country. You don't have to do push ups or sit ups to accomplish this.


actually, it can build a cohesiveness within a pledge class. when you experience something that's actually difficult (not just memorizing old lore) with another person and have the opportunity to bond with them, motivate them, and rely on them you build a much stronger bond than someone who just does some fundraising or studies with you. It is a rite of passage knowing that every member of the organization has experienced what you are experiencing. You don't have to be worked to death, beaten, or forced to drink to have this type of experience either. I'm proud of what i went through to earn my letters, and it was evident that every other member was also. the best times i've ever had as a brother were out at the house with just other brothers hanging out but the bond that made that interaction possible was forged during the pledge period. Nobody forced me to do anything, i was free to walk whenever i wanted to. i have absolutely no problem with those who wish not to haze whatsoever, but i hope that the program at my chapter never changes.

[knight_shadow]

^^^ Your chapter is not listed on your national website. If hazing created worthwhile brothers, why is your chapter now dormant?

[Forgotten Zeta]

my chapter has been "dormant" since 1991. i pledged much later and made the best decision of my life when i chose to pledge there. i've seen what the other fraternities called brotherhood. it was nothing compared to what was evident as soon as i met the brothers of my organization. since you don't know the reasons for the dormant status, i find it hard to believe that you can judge what goes on there. i'm still extremely close to every brother that i met while there and large numbers of alumni that were there long before me. that's brotherhood, not just a college experience but a lifetime bond that we have and instill into our pledge classes. hazing is an extremely loose term, and is not the reason that we became "dormant" to begin with. we have thrived long after our national hq left us based on our ideals of brotherhood, alumni support, the support of other chapters, and a desire to not let something that meant so much to so many die. i have never been beaten or publicly humiliated, that is dumb and something that we would never do to somebody who we would want to call brother. don't try to throw me into the mix with some of these other orgs who make the news because of death and alcohol poisoning. i simply said that making something more difficult than a little memorization makes it more worthwhile in my point of view. there's a reason that we have a choice when it comes to choosing what organization we affiliate with.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Zeta

you know what, i had responded to your idiocy, but now that i think about it. your not even worth the explanation. i pledged, not joined, pledged in 1999 and the chapter has been dormant according to nationals since 1991. the brothers that caused it, were not around when i was there, and the fact that it is still going strong is testament to how worthwhile our brothers are.

Wouldn't this count as a response?

Guess I hit a sore subject. Silly me...

[Forgotten Zeta]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Wouldn't this count as a response?

Guess I hit a sore subject. Silly me...

thats why i changed it

[APhiAnna]

Whether it's biological or cultural, I do think there are differences over how men and women bond.

For women, at least in the NPC culture, I do not think hazing works well at all. A friend of mine pledged a local that hazed very badly (not that all locals haze, but this did) and she resents her sorority so much. All of us that had the standard, no hazing NPC new member educations loved it. Although we may joke about how we wanted to be hazed, none of us really would have wanted to.

For guys (and maybe it is because my guy friends from back home are very much "jock/alpha male" types) it seems to work. No idea why. Every one of them was hazed (at a variety of different schools) and they have no regrets whatsoever. One of them was actually furious because a guy in his pledge class called into nationals and STOPPED his hazing...he wanted to continue it in full to prove himself.

While that would obviously not work for all guys, it seems like there are certain fraternities where it really does bond a pledge class together and there is little to no resentment.

My point is that I think the problem is that women who come from NPC and men who came from chapters where it would not work are voicing their opinions on hazing in chapters where it clearly works with no resentment or hard feelings. Illegal? Yes. It should obviously be illegal. But just because you don't think it would have been effective in your chapter doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of fraternity chapters where it continues strongly and effectively.

[Kansas City]

Originally Posted by Forgotten Zeta

my chapter has been "dormant" since 1991. i pledged much later and made the best decision of my life when i chose to pledge there. i've seen what the other fraternities called brotherhood. it was nothing compared to what was evident as soon as i met the brothers of my organization. since you don't know the reasons for the dormant status, i find it hard to believe that you can judge what goes on there. i'm still extremely close to every brother that i met while there and large numbers of alumni that were there long before me. that's brotherhood, not just a college experience but a lifetime bond that we have and instill into our pledge classes. hazing is an extremely loose term, and is not the reason that we became "dormant" to begin with. we have thrived long after our national hq left us based on our ideals of brotherhood, alumni support, the support of other chapters, and a desire to not let something that meant so much to so many die. i have never been beaten or publicly humiliated, that is dumb and something that we would never do to somebody who we would want to call brother. don't try to throw me into the mix with some of these other orgs who make the news because of death and alcohol poisoning. i simply said that making something more difficult than a little memorization makes it more worthwhile in my point of view. there's a reason that we have a choice when it comes to choosing what organization we affiliate with.

What exactly do you mean by "dormant"? Is your chapter recognized as a local fraternity by the university or are you working on becoming active again with your former HQ?

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

Whether it's biological or cultural, I do think there are differences over how men and women bond.

For women, at least in the NPC culture, I do not think hazing works well at all. A friend of mine pledged a local that hazed very badly (not that all locals haze, but this did) and she resents her sorority so much. All of us that had the standard, no hazing NPC new member educations loved it. Although we may joke about how we wanted to be hazed, none of us really would have wanted to.

For guys (and maybe it is because my guy friends from back home are very much "jock/alpha male" types) it seems to work. No idea why. Every one of them was hazed (at a variety of different schools) and they have no regrets whatsoever. One of them was actually furious because a guy in his pledge class called into nationals and STOPPED his hazing...he wanted to continue it in full to prove himself.

While that would obviously not work for all guys, it seems like there are certain fraternities where it really does bond a pledge class together and there is little to no resentment.

My point is that I think the problem is that women who come from NPC and men who came from chapters where it would not work are voicing their opinions on hazing in chapters where it clearly works with no resentment or hard feelings. Illegal? Yes. It should obviously be illegal. But just because you don't think it would have been effective in your chapter doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of fraternity chapters where it continues strongly and effectively.

We need to keep in mind that some of what's classified as hazing today is laughable and ridiculous. When members talk about wanting their pledge processes to be more challenging, they're not always talking about the abusive stuff.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kansas City

What exactly do you mean by "dormant"? Is your chapter recognized as a local fraternity by the university or are you working on becoming active again with your former HQ?

His chapter -- the former Lambda Xi chapter of Lambda Chi Alpha -- lost its charter in 1991. It is not recognized by Slippery Rock University.

Here's the GC thread on it.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Kansas City

What exactly do you mean by "dormant"? Is your chapter recognized as a local fraternity by the university or are you working on becoming active again with your former HQ?

My guess would be that he pledged underground.

[Forgotten Zeta]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

We need to keep in mind that some of what's classified as hazing today is laughable and ridiculous. When members talk about wanting their pledge processes to be more challenging, they're not always talking about the abusive stuff.

thank you, i never once mentioned any kind of forced consumption of alcohol, physical or verbal abuse, but the second someone reads my post that is the first thing that comes to mind.