Alabama recruitment fall-out

[lake]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white.

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true. If it is true, it may at least explain some of the issue. I don't know.

I would be interested in reading others' thoughts on this; especially those who are familiar with recruitment at Alabama or in the South, since recruitment seems to be a bigger deal in some areas of the South.

[KSUViolet06]

Went to a school in NE OH. Every chapter on campus (largest to smallest) had Black women in them. Still true today.

Always valued the fact that race-related convos were not taboo within my chapter. Continues to be true for me even post-graduation.

Every time this topic comes around, I'm reminded of how much of a great choice I made in not attending LSU.

I was interested in NPC recruitment circa senior year in HS and knew I'd rush at whatever school I attended.

I ended up not pursuing LSU for other reasons (larger scholarship offered by Kent), but in retrospect, it was probably for the best. I would have been in for a very rude recruitment awakening and a pretty sucky first few weeks of school (because I would've been cut the first day.)

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

You have never been privy to an NPC membership selection, and I consider your speculation to be way off-base.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

One point I have seen raised in this thread is that removing the possibility of exclusion based on race is not enough to integrate chapters (such as Alabama, for instance) - that more needs to be done to recruit AA members. This is a valid point considering the preparation necessary to participate in a recruitment of this nature.

I looked at the University of Maryland AOII facebook, and did not see AA members (and none among those in white dresses - are these new initiates?).

The Arizona State University Panhellenic Recruitment Guide doesn't reflect NPC chapter membership of AA women either:

http://asupan.com/wp-content/uploads...oklet20121.pdf

Just using those examples as you mentioned these states.

So I guess my question is -- what threshold of AA membership is considered "fully integrated" and sufficient to claim that a chapter is racially diverse?

Do these chapters actively recruit AA women? What have the chapters you advised done to address recruitment of potential members from diverse racial and socio-economic backgrounds?

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I'll agree that I find WRCs are typically more diverse, but I'm not so sure it's that PNM preferences are the main drivers here. I think you're going to see a combination of factors - soft discrimination, typical beauty stereotypes that emphasize skinny blonde girls, and a differences in recruitment preparation between demographic groups.

[Low D Flat]

You have never been privy to an NPC membership selection, and I consider your speculation to be way off-base.

Well, that'a fair. But can't we all agree that some chapters have a ton of slender, conventionally gorgeous white women? You don't really need to be in the back room to see that. I'm not making any claims about what the chapters' criteria are. I'm just saying, I'm a skinny white woman, and I've sometimes felt awkward or intimidated around groups of highly polished skinny white women with their perfect long straight hair, even when they are super friendly. It's not a great leap to suppose that it might be even harder for a PNM to feel confident in that kind of group if she looks noticeably different, especially when she's 18 and getting a quick first impression at recruitment.

It makes me think of a related social pattern. Not that long ago, there was a WRC among the Princeton eating clubs. This was one of the sign-in clubs, where PNMs just pick the one they want, with no selection by the upperclassmen. The two groups that kept this WRC alive for years were the marching band and the African-American students (who, then and now, join the eating clubs at a much lower rate than white students do). Band members at all-nerd schools like Princeton are REALLY nerdy. I don't think it's coincidental that the black students who did join a historically white club chose, from a white point of view, the uncoolest one. Band geeks sometimes do a better job than popular kids of making everybody feel welcome. (This club eventually went under; I don't know if the more mainstream clubs becoming more inclusive of African-Americans had anything to do with that.)

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Wow. Ok. First - look at the student demographics at ASU - it's 65% + white, and an additional 8% is "unknown", and 7% is "International", so those numbers could be even higher. The student population is only 3% African American. You forget that in the southwest and west coast, demographics represent large Asian and Hispanic populations, not African American populations. (SOURCE)

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

Second - the point being made was that PNMs are not being turned away due to blatant race issues, although I concede that there may be some soft discrimination - we all have biases in favor of people who are similar to ourselves.

I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

The point is that at many schools, minority women of all stripes and shades have very little difficulty getting bids, and the top minority women are going to the top chapters.

FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

But, none of this addresses the larger issue of the demographics who are being attracted to recruitment, which arguable skews whiter than overall student populations.

I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

[KDCat]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

ASU
1.8% American Indian/Alaskan Native
6.1% Asian
5.3% Black/African-American
20.1% Hispanic/Latino
3.1% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.3% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
62.2% White
1.2% Unknown

International Students
3.9% from 93 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg06_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1096

University of Alabama
0.4% American Indian/Alaskan Native
1.1% Asian
12.1% Black/African-American
2.9% Hispanic/Latino
1.7% Multi-race (not Hispanic/Latino)
0.1% Native Hawaiian/ Pacific Islander
81.3% White
0.3% Unknown

International Students
2.3% from 47 countries
http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/c...l?schoolId=469




I think the assumption has been (based on the assumption made and spun by authors of news articles) that the young lady of attention last fall at Bama was released by all chapters. She dropped out of formal recruitment, thus the assumption, but perhaps not because all chapters released her.



FWIW, there are also women of other minorities in chapters at Bama. Even in the chapter most often featured in the press for releasing the trustee’s granddaughter.

Also FWIW, Alabama colleges and universities within an hour’s distance of Bama also have minority members in their NPC chapters – all of these campuses have AA NPC chapter members: University of Alabama Birmingham, Birmingham Southern, Samford, University of Montevallo, and the University of West Alabama – that I know of. And so do universities in other regions of the state. I don’t know if onlookers in other areas of the country realize that.

So in my mind, this seems less a state of Alabama issue (or less a problem persisting in the south, as some have generalized), and more an issue involving the huge intensive recruitment at Bama – and AA women as the minority underrepresented.



I agree – I understand as few as 2 (and at most 4) AA PNMs participated (at some point) in NPC recruitment at Bama last fall. Even with a COB round implemented specifically to recruit and pledge minority women, relatively few AA women joined. Unless far many more register for recruitment, I don’t know how the goal of “complete integration,” as recently passed by the SGA , will be accomplished. (not that I read the resolution, but it seems a lot like grandstanding after the fact)

I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

Would you want to be an AA woman who joined an NPC sorority in the middle of that hurly burly at Alabama last fall? I wouldn't. I'd feel like I was under a microscope with the Crimson, the nationals and the administration all looking at me. I'd feel like I was only being pledged because I was black and not because the sorority really wanted me. I'd feel like my bid was given grudgingly. I'd feel like I was a token member who was giving the chapter(s) cover for being as racist as they wanna be. In the second article posted to this thread, an AA PNM said that she chose to join AKA over an NPC sorority because she didn't feel entirely welcome at NPC sororities. I totally get that and I'd feel the same as her in that situation.

I don't think the system will ever completely integrate and I don't think that should be our goal. If you're counting what percentage of AA women are Greek on any campus, you have to count the women who join historically black GLOs in that percentage. It's not fair or true to say that Alabama has an all white sorority system. It doesn't. It does have an overly segregated system, though, and that system didn't treat AA PNMs fairly when it came to NPC recruitment.

[LAblondeGPhi]

Originally Posted by Hartofsec

Those numbers appear to be old stats regarding degree distribution by race – these may be more up-to-date and detailed:

....
I feel like any racial barriers to the NPC recruitment process have been moved aside as much as is institutionally possible. The question I have raised, however, is . . . will this be enough to accomplish that goal?

This was a nice rebuttal, and I think we agree on more points than we disagree. The data I sourced was indeed a few years old, and it looks like ASU is getting *a little* more diverse, which is a good thing.

I'll still stand by AOII Angel's comment - in working with Southern California chapters, I have never seen race as a cut and dry issue to the point where chapters would feel ostracized for taking a particular PNM. I have never seen circumstances where chapters even knew if a PNM would be the "first" whatever pledged to their chapter.

However, I will concede that I have seen Greek communities start to take notice when a chapter starts to become "majority minority". Is this also a form of racism? Yes, I believe it is. It may not affect women so strongly at the individual level (as it appears is the case at Alabama), but in aggregate it still affects the population.

[AnchorAlumna]

Originally Posted by lake

I wonder how this would play into the (incorrect?) assertion that some chapters on some campuses already have their bid list decided months before formal recruitment. I've seen this talked about sometimes. I have no idea if this is true.

It is NOT true that some groups already know their NM class. I don't care how big and powerful they are. Even the top 5 or 6 at Alabama don't. After all, they're competing for the same girls, and not every group gets exactly who they want.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

That's been my experience, too. It seems to be true even on campuses where most chapters COB. My theory is that, as noted upthread, "top-tier" NPC chapters sometimes have more of a cookie-cutter skinny white look (sometimes also blonde). The weaker recruiting chapters are more likely to be diverse in terms of appearance and body type, even if all the members are white. If I'm a nonwhite woman, even if I'm skinny and Hollywood pretty, I might gravitate toward the WRC where there's more than one OK way to look, and it doesn't seem like fitting a visual mold is key to belonging.

I agree that there are idiots who "don't see race," but not on this thread, so far.

Your experience? You said you weren't even Greek.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KDCat

Brain-storming here:

1. Some schools have orientation days for non-majority students. They get a lot of information targeted to those students. If Panhel tabled during those days at locations where that orientation was happening, it would be a way to draw in a more diverse crowd for formal recruitment. Doing a "Meet the Greeks" or information session during that orientation period could be helpful. Invite all of the NPC and non-NPC groups to participate. If there's an activity fair, table at that.

2. At some schools Panhel sends out information re. registering for recruitment by email or regular mail over the summer. It might be helpful to make those materials include information that indicates that all NPC chapters are open to all qualified candidates and which includes information on the process for both women of color and first generation college students who might not otherwise have access to information about recruitment.

3. Target qualified women of color during COB. Every university in the US in integrated. All of our collegians know women of color through their classes and other organizations. Chapters should target the women they are already friends with. Even if she says "no," to COB or a bid the active courting is going change the climate and make it more clear that NPC is more open than it used to be.

I like plan 1 and plan 2. I don't like plan 3. If you're a chapter that has to do COB, it means you're under total and need to get up to total with members that will fit in quickly and be committed to YOUR group, not just A group. If a woman such as that happens to be A-A, that's fine. But COB is not the time for a teachable moment or diversity for diversity's sake.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I like plan 1 and plan 2. I don't like plan 3. If you're a chapter that has to do COB, it means you're under total and need to get up to total with members that will fit in quickly and be committed to YOUR group, not just A group. If a woman such as that happens to be A-A, that's fine. But COB is not the time for a teachable moment or diversity for diversity's sake.

I disagree. I work with a WRC that does COB year around. Recruiting diverse women at ANYtime is a great idea. Those women can be great additions and work towards strengthening the chapter as much as any white woman can. Thinking you can't bid minorities during a time of weakness is shortsighted. Minority women can be and are as strong and dedicated as white members. Holding off becoming diverse or integrated until you are stronger is a cop out.

[Hartofsec]

Originally Posted by LAblondeGPhi

I'll still stand by AOII Angel's comment - in working with Southern California chapters, I have never seen race as a cut and dry issue to the point where chapters would feel ostracized for taking a particular PNM. I have never seen circumstances where chapters even knew if a PNM would be the "first" whatever pledged to their chapter.

I didn't challenge AOII Angel's comment about Southern California, but I would agree with her that racial diversity may be more common in smaller, newer chapters (likely with far smaller recruitments).

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I disagree. I work with a WRC that does COB year around. Recruiting diverse women at ANYtime is a great idea. Those women can be great additions and work towards strengthening the chapter as much as any white woman can. Thinking you can't bid minorities during a time of weakness is shortsighted. Minority women can be and are as strong and dedicated as white members. Holding off becoming diverse or integrated until you are stronger is a cop out.

That isn't what I said. If you have 5 COB spots and the 5 women the chapter likes most and wants to give those bids to are all Black, that's fine - even if the chapter might get looked at funny for it. What I don't agree with is "targeting" Black women for COBs if there are other women the chapter would rather have. When you have numbers issues you don't need to throw accusations of tokenism into the mix. Plus, at some schools COBing is so looked down on that bringing in a Black woman that way would make things harder for her.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

That isn't what I said. If you have 5 COB spots and the 5 women the chapter likes most and wants to give those bids to are all Black, that's fine - even if the chapter might get looked at funny for it. What I don't agree with is "targeting" Black women for COBs if there are other women the chapter would rather have. When you have numbers issues you don't need to throw accusations of tokenism into the mix. Plus, at some schools COBing is so looked down on that bringing in a Black woman that way would make things harder for her.

If pledging an AA woman is that controversial, the timing of when a chapter chooses to give a bid to an AA member (during COB or during Formal recruitment) would make no difference. It will make no difference. Having five open spots for COB at a campus that looks down on COB does not mean a chapter is struggling. The groups that take members during COB aren't suddenly on different standing when they are in formal recruitment. Their position in the Greek system is the same year round. Holding off pledging an AA woman because OMG it's a COB bid and people look down on those bids so we can't possibly diversify the chapter during that time. Choosing to recruit a wide range of members rather than just all white members doesn't mean that a chapter is being forced to take black women instead of the white ones they'd rather take. It's about deciding to make an effort to meet people outside your regular group of friends and finding women of other ethnic groups that would make good members because they may expand the experience of your chapter. The benefits of such an approach are the same as when a chapter chooses to select for any other trait such as academics, dancing ability, singing ability, appearance, etc.