FDA poised to OK food from cloned animals

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

No one has clearly answered how many different strains of bovine species in the US not including bison and buffalo...

Jersey, Halstein [sp?], Brahma, Rowan, Kobe, Angus, etc.

That's just the short list...

I would say, from my experience, the breeds most commonly used for Beef production in the Midwest are Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Charolais, Limousin and any combination of those breeds. Jersey and Holstein are technically dairy breeds, but their meat can be processed and sold like beef cattle. Breeds such as Longhorn, and to a lesser extent the Brahma, are more common in Texas and Mountain/Plains states.

You know what I'm going to do, talk to my dad who IS ACTUALLY IN THE BEEF BUSINESS on what he feels the market is doing and whether or not the potential for cloning would be good for the farm, not rely on a bunch of links.

Personally, I get beef for free and I know exactly where and when it was born, what it ate, what medicines (if any) were given and how and where it was processed and I like it like that. Now, if only I could talk the husband into taking over when dad and the guys retire...

[bluefish81]

Originally Posted by blueangel

What about the overproduction of milk?

"Carol Tucker Foreman, of the Consumer Federation of America, said U.S. farmers produce more milk than Americans can drink, and the government must buy the surplus. "Since 1999, dairy-support programs have cost taxpayers over $5 billion," she said."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html

There may be an overproduction of milk, but I think the farmer might have an easier time maintaining fewer head of cattle that could create the same production so that he could see bigger profits. Why maintain 300 head of cattle when 200 can produce the same milk or whatever? As the family farm continues to disappear, farmers have to continue to look for ways to be competitive.

I also don't know enough to comment about the dairy-support program or how it works.

My question is (to anyone)how much do you know about where your meat comes from currently? Unless you have a personal relationship with whoever raises your meat, do you really know for sure how it's showing up on your grocery store shelf? How do you know that you'll be able to tell the difference between what meat from the offspring of a cloned animal and a non-cloned animal might taste like?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

I would say, from my experience, the breeds most commonly used for Beef production in the Midwest are Angus, Hereford, Shorthorn, Charolais, Limousin and any combination of those breeds. Jersey and Holstein are technically dairy breeds, but their meat can be processed and sold like beef cattle. Breeds such as Longhorn, and to a lesser extent the Brahma, are more common in Texas and Mountain/Plains states.

You know what I'm going to do, talk to my dad who IS ACTUALLY IN THE BEEF BUSINESS on what he feels the market is doing and whether or not the potential for cloning would be good for the farm, not rely on a bunch of links.

Personally, I get beef for free and I know exactly where and when it was born, what it ate, what medicines (if any) were given and how and where it was processed and I like it like that. Now, if only I could talk the husband into taking over when dad and the guys retire...

My husband is a vet. An aquatic animal specialist in Salmon: mainly chinook, steelhead and sockeye as well as trout...

Get me a good tenderloin and filet mignon, I will can get you the nice copper river salmon when it's in season...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Can you quote some statistics to back up your allegation? On the contrary, I seem to be finding evidence of a glut of meat -- both chicken and beef on the U.S. market:

"In November, Tyson ended its fiscal year with a third straight quarterly loss, as its chicken and beef businesses were hurt by a glut of meat on the market. Agricultural economists have blamed the meat surplus on a range of factors, including overproduction following high market prices for animals in the past two years."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/4440816.html

The glut drove meat prices down... and as a result, the struggling meat industry is looking at the recent winter storms on the Plains as prompting beef prices to rise next year.

What about the overproduction of milk?

"Carol Tucker Foreman, of the Consumer Federation of America, said U.S. farmers produce more milk than Americans can drink, and the government must buy the surplus. "Since 1999, dairy-support programs have cost taxpayers over $5 billion," she said."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html



Again.. where are you numbers? The low success rate and the high number of abnormalites in cloned animals not only makes no economic sense, but it is cruel to animals. Further... Did you know that this process will cost an estimated $15,000 per procedure?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...8_clone29.html



There has been much resistance to the idea of consuming cloned meats in much of the world. It would seem to me that instead of being positive for our trade balance, this would be a big negative as other countries will be suspect of the safety of US Food.

Countries like Japan and South Korea have already had or have bans of U.S. meat in place due to bovine spongiform encephalopathy (Mad Cow) worries. In fact in 2006, 21 countries banned the importation of U.S. meat over safety concerns. And you think the U.S. food supply is safe? Apparently, those countries think so.

" According to a recent report to the European Union’s executive arm by the Danish Centre for Bioethics and Risk Assessment, “Groups of citizens, and even some member states, would be likely to resist the import and/or marketing [labeled or unlabeled] of cloned animals and their products.“

"In South Korea, one of the largest export markets for U.S. beef, cloned foods “are not positive“ said Sockjoong Yoon, minister for public affairs at the South Korean Embassy in Washington. Chong Ghee Ahn, the embassy’s economic counselor, said it was too early to say what impact cloning might have on U.S. exports. However, he added that in the wake of mad-cow disease and avian flu, “Korean customers are getting very, very sensitive.“
http://www.cattlenetwork.com/content...ontentid=94274

Regarding South America: Columbia and Peru have only recently reopened importation of U.S. meat after banning it due to Mad Cow concerns. This is not new trade as you imply. In 2003 for example, the U.S. exported a combined total of more than $4 million worth of beef and beef products to Colombia and Peru.
http://www.meatnews.com/index.cfm?fu...e&artNum=12879



In what way, when there is international resistance to cloned meat products?



Actually, meat prices are lower due to the glut of beef and chicken on the market. Again, please see the first article I quoted regarding Tyson's profits falling.

The bottom line... the safety of cloned meat is still in question.

The nonprofit advocacy group the Center for Food Safety in Washington, D.C., cited a number of health and safety problems related to cloned livestock that the group says the agency has not properly addressed.

People eating cloned meat would be exposed to higher amounts of animal hormones, related to the cloning process, the group says.

The animals themselves would suffer from the high incidence of disease and birth defects currently recorded in cloned animals.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ed-meat_2.html

And this from a news release I received fromThe Center for Food Safety:
“When they deny us mandatory labels, they don’t just deny us the right to choose,” said Andrew Kimbrell, executive director of the Center for Food Safety.

“They also deny our health professionals the ability to trace potential toxic or allergic reactions to this food,” Kimbrell said. “It’s bad enough they’re making us guinea pigs. But when we have health effects, we won’t be able to trace it.”

I don't choose to be the FDA's guinea pig. Do you?

My Doctorate in Molecular Genetics and Medicine from the University of California, San Diego and San Diego State University is enough for you to have to establish my credibility on the subject.

Moreover, my published papers on PubMed and Entrez in human disease as well as my creditials husband's Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine is enough of a reference for you to justify what we both know in the field.

What is the actual physical protocol to isolating cells, growing them, enucleating embryos and combining the two items through electroporation?

Tell me what serum you use? Tell me what antibotics, if any, you use? How does one grow bovine fibroblasts and obtain the nuclei?

I did not spend an excessive amount of time in graduate school to justify anything to you or anyone for that matter.

Then, it is pretty bold for the South Koreans to say anything regarding cloning since they said they cloned the first human embryos and later found out they defrauded the scientific community...

Yeah, the US really has a glut of meat products... Okey... So why does it cost so much at the grocery store? And don't say it's because it's all about taxes...

Besides the Seattle Times and the Seattle PI are piss poor in their scientific astuteness. I live here, they barely understand the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, much less Univeristy of Washington's research. I wouldn't trust the paper nor the ink that Seattle Times or PI prints in regard to science. And I will be more than happy to forward your email to my Prinicipal Investigator who can share all his views about the quality of scientific news coming out of Seattle. No one would say it. But in 10 years, that will all change since Paul Allen is interested in it...

I could care less what those other countries you listed think about the US products. We aren't starving... And our safety and efficacy to obtain our animal products is a much better than all their veterinary protocols and they know it. We block our exports of foodstuff, you will see WWIII or terrorist actions, whatever. Folks get pissed if not fed.

The Parker Ranch in Hawaii has to export their calves for veal. But let them stop... Let me know what happens when they do...

I myself am a ovo-lacto-vegetarian. I don't like the taste of meat. My husband loves it. And if he wants it, I will get it for him.

But lack of B12 vitamin causes psychiatric neurological problems... Maybe that's what you are suffering from--delusions.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

My Doctorate in Molecular Genetics and Medicine from the University of California, San Diego and San Diego State University is enough for you to have to establish my credibility on the subject.

Moreover, my published papers on PubMed and Entrez in human disease as well as my creditials husband's Doctorate of Veterinary Medicine is enough of a reference for you to justify what we both know in the field.

Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm not.. because you have not refuted a single statement which I made, nor have you quoted any references to back up your point of view. I, on the other hand.. supplied you with the references. Why haven't you addressed my specific statements? You can't refute them, perhaps?

What is the actual physical protocol to isolating cells, growing them, enucleating embryos and combining the two items through electroporation?

Tell me what serum you use? Tell me what antibotics, if any, you use? How does one grow bovine fibroblasts and obtain the nuclei?

Is this a science test? No, I think it is merely a diversion because you can't refute any of the statements which I backed up with references. Can you?

I did not spend an excessive amount of time in graduate school to justify anything to you or anyone for that matter.

Translation: You won't because you can't.

Then, it is pretty bold for the South Koreans to say anything regarding cloning since they said they cloned the first human embryos and later found out they defrauded the scientific community...

What has that got to do with the price of beer?

Yeah, the US really has a glut of meat products... Okey... So why does it cost so much at the grocery store? And don't say it's because it's all about taxes...

Do I now need to give you an economics lesson? It's called "supply and demand"--
You can read all about it here:
http://www.qcbusinessjournal.com/art...re/1022491.txt

If you're referring to tax breaks to beef producers-- yes, that does partially influence the price of beef. For example, when Mad Cow was discovered in Washington in 2004, the house and senate offered temporary relief to the beef industry.... and in 2006, tax relief for livestock producers during the drought.

Besides the Seattle Times and the Seattle PI are piss poor in their scientific astuteness. I live here, they barely understand the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center, much less Univeristy of Washington's research. I wouldn't trust the paper nor the ink that Seattle Times or PI prints in regard to science. And I will be more than happy to forward your email to my Prinicipal Investigator who can share all his views about the quality of scientific news coming out of Seattle. No one would say it. But in 10 years, that will all change since Paul Allen is interested in it...

So where are all of your references?

I could care less what those other countries you listed think about the US products. We aren't starving... And our safety and efficacy to obtain our animal products is a much better than all their veterinary protocols and they know it. We block our exports of foodstuff, you will see WWIII or terrorist actions, whatever. Folks get pissed if not fed.

No, we're not starving.. instead, we're being exposed to all kinds of hormones and antibiotics being injected into beef. There is also very little testing being done for mad cow.

The Parker Ranch in Hawaii has to export their calves for veal. But let them stop... Let me know what happens when they do...

Again, what has that got to do with the price of beer?

I myself am a ovo-lacto-vegetarian. I don't like the taste of meat. My husband loves it. And if he wants it, I will get it for him.

And your point? How does this relate to cloning, or are we just going on yet another pointless diversion because you have not been able to refute any of the points I made?

But lack of B12 vitamin causes psychiatric neurological problems... Maybe that's what you are suffering from--delusions.

And that just answers my question. When someone feels the need to attack the poster rather than the subject.. that simply means that the person doing the attacking doesn't have a leg to stand on in a debate.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm not.. because you have not refuted a single statement which I made, nor have you quoted any references to back up your point of view. I, on the other hand.. supplied you with the references. Why haven't you addressed my specific statements? You can't refute them, perhaps?



Is this a science test? No, I think it is merely a diversion because you can't refute any of the statements which I backed up with references. Can you?



Translation: You won't because you can't.



What has that got to do with the price of beer?



Do I now need to give you an economics lesson? It's called "supply and demand"--
You can read all about it here:
http://www.qcbusinessjournal.com/art...re/1022491.txt

If you're referring to tax breaks to beef producers-- yes, that does partially influence the price of beef. For example, when Mad Cow was discovered in Washington in 2004, the house and senate offered temporary relief to the beef industry.... and in 2006, tax relief for livestock producers during the drought.



So where are all of your references?



No, we're not starving.. instead, we're being exposed to all kinds of hormones and antibiotics being injected into beef. There is also very little testing being done for mad cow.



Again, what has that got to do with the price of beer?



And your point? How does this relate to cloning, or are we just going on yet another pointless diversion because you have not been able to refute any of the points I made?



And that just answers my question. When someone feels the need to attack the poster rather than the subject.. that simply means that the person doing the attacking doesn't have a leg to stand on in a debate.

You've used a handful of sources to "prove" your point. Can't you, at least in a reasoned manner, discuss the topic with someone who has the credentials to discuss the topic? Also, if someone knows the field, do they need to quote another expert, or shouldn't they just be able to stand on their own experience? Or are you just going to listen to people who agree with you?

Additionally, the "Am I supposed to be impressed..." line sounds like an attack to me. How can you chastise others when you are doing the attacking?

She wasn't trying to give you a "science test," she was trying to explain the process of cloning to you.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

You've used a handful of sources to "prove" your point. Can't you, at least in a reasoned manner, discuss the topic with someone who has the credentials to discuss the topic? Also, if someone knows the field, do they need to quote another expert, or shouldn't they just be able to stand on their own experience? Or are you just going to listen to people who agree with you?.

She is not a cloning expert... so yes, she needs to source what she says.. however.. she has not addressed my points.... nor, for that matter, have you.

Additionally, the "Am I supposed to be impressed..." line sounds like an attack to me. How can you chastise others when you are doing the attacking?

Perhaps you don't know what a personal attack is? A personal attack is when someone directly attacks a person such as "you are a pompous idiot." It is, however, very clear that her post was written in such a way as to try to put on airs, hence the question.. "am I supposed to be impressed?" I am not, by the way.

But then, you knew that. You're just trying to divert the discussion. How about refuting some of my points about cloning, and source them, please.

And may I remind you of her viscious personal attack, and I quote, "But lack of B12 vitamin causes psychiatric neurological problems... Maybe that's what you are suffering from--delusions." That is a sign of someone losing a debate and of utter desperation.

She wasn't trying to give you a "science test," she was trying to explain the process of cloning to you.

With questions? May I remind you of her quote, "What is the actual physical protocol to isolating cells, growing them, enucleating embryos and combining the two items through electroporationTell me what serum you use? Tell me what antibotics, if any, you use? How does one grow bovine fibroblasts and obtain the nuclei?."

How does that "explain the cloning process?"

Now, shall we get back on topic? I would be very anxious to hear your side of the cloning debate.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by blueangel

She is not a cloning expert... so yes, she needs to source what she says..

She has cloned cells before...what else does she need to do to be an "expert"?? How many cells have you cloned?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

She has cloned cells before...what else does she need to do to be an "expert"?? How many cells have you cloned?

That has to be in the top 3 call outs EVER on GC.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

She has cloned cells before...what else does she need to do to be an "expert"?? How many cells have you cloned?

How many animals has she cloned? Try again! And why has she not responded to my points?

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by blueangel

And why has she not responded to my points?

Because your posts evoke this response:



And I still fail to see how your posting of random websites makes you more of an expert on cloning then those who have actually performed the act of cloning...even if it wasn't the whole damn animal.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Because your posts evoke this response:



And I still fail to see how your posting of random websites makes you more of an expert on cloning then those who have actually performed the act of cloning...even if it wasn't the whole damn animal.

My sources are "experts." Where are AKA Monet's sources? And where has she refuted any of the facts I presented?

Why don't you constructively add to the debate instead of posting silly cartoons? Or are you not able to refute the facts I've presented?

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

My husband is a vet. An aquatic animal specialist in Salmon: mainly chinook, steelhead and sockeye as well as trout...

Get me a good tenderloin and filet mignon, I will can get you the nice copper river salmon when it's in season...

Oh, DEAL!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by blueangel

Am I supposed to be impressed? I'm not.. because you have not refuted a single statement which I made, nor have you quoted any references to back up your point of view. I, on the other hand.. supplied you with the references. Why haven't you addressed my specific statements? You can't refute them, perhaps?

Originally Posted by blueangel

And why has she not responded to my points?

AKAMonet's pretty smart. Perhaps she has learned, like so many of the rest of us, that you posit unsupportable arguments, string together random citations from "experts" in an attempt to support those unsupportable arguments, often taking them out of context or reading more into them than is there, and then expect people to take you seriously and respond to you point by point, even though you're not going to listen if they do.

Perhaps she doesn't want to play games with you, constantly responding to your mantra of "why haven't you answered my question" with "because your question shows that you don't know what you're talking about."

Perhaps she, like so many of the rest of us, decided a long time ago that in these types of "discussions," you simply lack any credibility.

Originally Posted by blueangel

Why don't you constructively add to the debate . . . .

I think I just got my daily recommended allowance of irony.

[blueangel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

AKAMonet's pretty smart. Perhaps she has learned, like so many of the rest of us, that you posit unsupportable arguments, string together random citations from "experts" in an attempt to support those unsupportable arguments, often taking them out of context or reading more into them than is there, and then expect people to take you seriously and respond to you point by point, even though you're not going to listen if they do.

Perhaps she doesn't want to play games with you, constantly responding to your mantra of "why haven't you answered my question" with "because your question shows that you don't know what you're talking about."

Perhaps she, like so many of the rest of us, decided a long time ago that in these types of "discussions," you simply lack any credibility.

I think I just got my daily recommended allowance of irony.

Or perhaps she and you find that my "experts" and "sourcing" have left she and you unable to refute them? Instead, she and you dance around the point. Now, would you like to address any of the points I made? Or do you concede the debate as well?