If Hazing is Wrong, what's a better alternative?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

msl2008 is really a 40 year old prisoner with internet privileges.

he's been "hazed" eversince the other prisoners found out what he's there for.

Hmmmm . . . Could msl2008 really be . . .





wait for it . . .








Hoosier?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Hmmmm . . . Could msl2008 really be . . .





wait for it . . .








Hoosier?

hmmmm...that would be interestingly disturbing or disturbingly interesting.

[BadCat25]

You are all beating your heads against the wall if you think you will convince this guy that his image of a badass fraternity that hazes 40% of its new new members to drop out or are kicked out is out of step with current reality. He just wants to haze and you will never convince him otherwise. He is the kind of guy that will tell all of us how mean his national and university is when his chapter is closed down and his chapter house stands empty.

[KSUViolet06]

I really don't think this guy is Greek at all. I'm sorry, I just don't.

[msl2008]

haha...i found the last few posts quite interesting. first of all, you might not believe this but i'm actually one of the more rational ones. i rarely hazed people except to get a point across and most pledges thanked me after they crossed because they told me they understood the points i was making.

why don't you think i'm greek ksuviolet? is it b/c my organization hazes and you just can't accept the fact? sorry for actually having a process where i actually had to go thru some hardships. if i was showered with gifts and encouraged the whole way i would probably be saying the same thing as you are b/c you haven't seen the other side. remember that even though football training is preparing you for the game and military training is preparing you for war, would you question that the process is effective and makes people stronger mentally and physically? even if a glo isn't preparing you for anything in particular, it can also make you stronger whether you guys agree or not.

and for those of you who say earn your letters after you cross, i ask why you don't just give your letters out to everyone then? it's funny how you think my organization is messed up but we're actually proud of our letters. i see many fraternities let friends or gfs wear their letters all the time. great way of earning your letters huh? what a joke.

but i guess you guys are right. you probably won't change my mind b/c i haven't heard of any good ideas as alternatives to hazing. doesn't really matter to me though since i don't haze people anymore anyway. i was just looking for some ideas that i could give to my chapter but if all i'm going to get is an argument on why hazing is stupid and personal insults, then i guess i'm wasting my time.

but if you guys have any GOOD ideas, i'm still open to them. but if all you want to do is insult me, well a public forum is a pretty ridiculous and childish place to do that. you guys have really proven how much you guys respect your orgs huh?

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

why don't you think i'm greek ksuviolet? is it b/c my organization hazes and you just can't accept the fact? sorry for actually having a process where i actually had to go thru some hardships.

You missed my entire point. The stuff you're talking about isn't the stuff that fosters brotherhood or sisterhood.

Going by your logic, since I wasn't hazed, my sisters and I are not close and they don't give a crap about me or Sigma for that matter.

So, like I was saying, when I broke my nose last week, going by YOUR logic, my sisters just said "Whatever, we weren't put through some incredibly rigorous hazing together, so she doesn't matter to me."

In actuality, that couldn't be FURTHER from the truth.

Push-ups and getting yelled at isn't what made these women drive out of their way to bring my food because I was unable to cook while in pain. It's not what made them spend all day with me in the ER. It's not what made them stay over at my house all week to try and take care of me.

Your theory of Greeks who don't haze don't give a crap about their sisters or their organizations does not hold up here.

Sorry. Like I said, if all you ever got out of being Greek is that it's important to yell at people and treat them like crap, then your Greek experience has failed you miserably.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

why don't you think i'm greek ksuviolet? is it b/c my organization hazes and you just can't accept the fact? sorry for actually having a process where i actually had to go thru some hardships. if i was showered with gifts and encouraged the whole way i would probably be saying the same thing as you are b/c you haven't seen the other side. remember that even though football training is preparing you for the game and military training is preparing you for war, would you question that the process is effective and makes people stronger mentally and physically? even if a glo isn't preparing you for anything in particular, it can also make you stronger whether you guys agree or not.

Your analogies still suck.

and for those of you who say earn your letters after you cross, i ask why you don't just give your letters out to everyone then? it's funny how you think my organization is messed up but we're actually proud of our letters. i see many fraternities let friends or gfs wear their letters all the time. great way of earning your letters huh? what a joke.

So the only thing your organization is good for is making good pledges? I guess having good brothers is not a priority.

BTW, I've seen members of fraternities that have been hazed who still give their letters to their girlfriends. What's their excuse?

but i guess you guys are right. you probably won't change my mind b/c i haven't heard of any good ideas as alternatives to hazing. doesn't really matter to me though since i don't haze people anymore anyway. i was just looking for some ideas that i could give to my chapter but if all i'm going to get is an argument on why hazing is stupid and personal insults, then i guess i'm wasting my time.

I'm going to laugh when your chapter gets closed for a hazing incident.

but if you guys have any GOOD ideas, i'm still open to them. but if all you want to do is insult me, well a public forum is a pretty ridiculous and childish place to do that. you guys have really proven how much you guys respect your orgs huh?

You keep avoiding my question about the hybrid program. Why do you need ideas if your way is already working?

Excluding you, everyone in this thread has shown distaste for hazing and has stated that the best way to show brotherhood and sisterhood is through service in our respective organizations. That is showing respect for our GLOs.

So yea, massive fail on your part.

[msl2008]

i thought it was pretty obvious that i wanted ideas b/c i want to reform pledging a little bit. try and make it less hazing as much as possible while still making it challenging enough so it's still exclusive.

it is possible for my chapter to get closed due to hazing. however, it is about as likely as someone in college getting busted for smoking weed. the chances are just so low and the punishments so weak that this is why hazing still exists. obviously the punishments that are given aren't enough to deter students from hazing or else we wouln't be reading about hazing incidents all the time would we?

and i still don't understand how by doing community service you're showing brotherhood/sisterhood. is it becuz ur all there that you're showing unity by volunteering your time? i see clubs do that all the time. is that really what brotherhood is to you? volunteering to the community? so i guess you can say you love your fraternity brother b/c he served popcorn with you at a sport event huh? would you feel that way if you were on a battlefield with him?

now i might have a different sense of brotherhood here but i don't believe brothers are made by doing things that anyone can do. you take your fraternity brothers and i'll take mine and if we go to war we'll see whose gonna leave who behind huh? now i understand you guys hate talking about the military but i believe military builds true bonds b/c you have to trust people with your lives. would you trust someone who just had to put in his time with you? i don't think so.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

would you trust someone who just had to put in his time with you?

Yes.

My sisters cleaned up my gross bloody nose after my accident not because we got treated like we were in basic training when we joined the sorority.

They do that because we've formed a bond through spending time together and doing things together.

[agzg]

Fraternities are not the military and they do not go to war. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

STOP USING THAT ANALOGY - IT DOES NOT WORK. Several people have pointed that out.

[moe.ron]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Fraternities are not the military and they do not go to war. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

STOP USING THAT ANALOGY - IT DOES NOT WORK. Several people have pointed that out.

Don't you know, fraternities are trained to be navy seals.

[msl2008]

that's one incident. so what would you say about best friends hooking up with bfs cuz we know that happens a lot. my whole point is it's hard to judge a person's personality regardless if you haze them or not. however, i just feel i guess safer knowing that he went thru a tough process that not everyone can go through. could he still not learn anything? of course. but at least he stuck it out and proved he had some toughness.

when the going gets tough, lots of people quit and get scared. i would want the people who can overcome this stuff and stick it out with me. i don't know, maybe i am comparing this too much to the military but i guess we could do a whole lot worse huh? at least by following the military we have a foundation with which to build and teach on and we don't alcohol haze or anything like that (only physical). but i guess it's too much to understand.

but honestly, you guys can't see anyway in which a pledging process based on basic training is good and would rather just do community service or study sessions etc? would you guys also say that your GLO brotherhood/sisterhood is stronger then the military brotherhood?

[msl2008]

you are right, fraternities do not go to war (well at least not everyone though lots of people in my fraternity do actually). however, we are discussing what builds brotherhood/sisterhood here are we not? i am saying that doing a physical pledge process based on military training builds stronger ties then doing philanthropies and study sessions. i believe fraternity is based on the word brotherhood. even though they do not go to war, it's about building bonds. so please explain to me how your fraternity builds stronger bonds then the military. i think it's very relevant.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by msl2008

i am saying that doing a physical pledge process based on military training builds stronger ties then doing philanthropies and study sessions.

False.

I know lots of guys who went through really tough physical hazing who could give a crap about the fraternity (or their brothers) after pledging. What good is your "basic training" pledge process if they think "cool I got in, I don't need to do anything else?"

If all you concern yourself with is hazing pledges, you're not doing anything for the fraternity, because the fraternity experience doesn't end there. I'm sorry.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by msl2008

i thought it was pretty obvious that i wanted ideas b/c i want to reform pledging a little bit. try and make it less hazing as much as possible while still making it challenging enough so it's still exclusive.

it is possible for my chapter to get closed due to hazing. however, it is about as likely as someone in college getting busted for smoking weed. the chances are just so low and the punishments so weak that this is why hazing still exists. obviously the punishments that are given aren't enough to deter students from hazing or else we wouln't be reading about hazing incidents all the time would we?

and i still don't understand how by doing community service you're showing brotherhood/sisterhood. is it becuz ur all there that you're showing unity by volunteering your time? i see clubs do that all the time. is that really what brotherhood is to you? volunteering to the community? so i guess you can say you love your fraternity brother b/c he served popcorn with you at a sport event huh? would you feel that way if you were on a battlefield with him?

now i might have a different sense of brotherhood here but i don't believe brothers are made by doing things that anyone can do. you take your fraternity brothers and i'll take mine and if we go to war we'll see whose gonna leave who behind huh? now i understand you guys hate talking about the military but i believe military builds true bonds b/c you have to trust people with your lives. would you trust someone who just had to put in his time with you? i don't think so.

Why do you need to reform something that works for you already? If your mixed program is the best thing out there, you shouldn't need ideas.

Clearly you don't pay attention to the news if you think organizations don't get caught for hazing. And if fines and jail time aren't a deterrent for you, then you want to go to jail.

Like I said earlier, I had to go through some questionable activities so I've seen "the other side." That has not made me into a better brother. Living up to the ideals that my founders envisioned is what does that. Having casual interactions with my brothers has done it.

I never will have to go to war with my brothers, so again, your analogy sucks.

And LOL at you thinking serving popcorn is service.