No communion for Obama supporters

[Scandia]

I've also always wondered if other Catholics (in an area that is not predominantly Hispanic) have such an "admiration" to the Virgin Mary that the Hispanic (mainly Mexican) Catholics do.

When we first moved to northern Florida, one of the first things my mother noticed about the church we joined was that "here they don't sing to the Virgin. Everything is 'Lord this' and 'Lord that'". The devotion, while present, is nowhere near as intense.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by epchick

I don't ever remember learning it so i'm not exactly sure if that is what they are implying, but here is what it says (verbatim):

"Why did Jesus come down to earth?

God sent Jesus to earth so that he could found the Catholic Church"

According to dicionary.com, one of the definitions of catholic is

# Catholic

1. Of or involving the Roman Catholic Church.
2. Of or relating to the universal Christian church.
3. Of or relating to the ancient undivided Christian church.
4. Of or relating to those churches that have claimed to be representatives of the ancient undivided church.

so the catechism may be referring to the ancient undivided church as opposed to the Roman Catholic church. I know in our hymnals (LCMS Lutheran) there's a footnote in the Apostle's Creed where it states the word Christian in one spot used to be catholic. I believe other denominations still use the term catholic when they recite the creed.

Or maybe Roman Catholics are really that self-centered.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

According to dicionary.com, one of the definitions of catholic is
so the catechism may be referring to the ancient undivided church as opposed to the Roman Catholic church. I know in our hymnals (LCMS Lutheran) there's a footnote in the Apostle's Creed where it states the word Christian in one spot used to be catholic. I believe other denominations still use the term catholic when they recite the creed.

Or maybe Roman Catholics are really that self-centered.

Even if they are referring to the "undivided church," I'm pretty sure that Jesus didn't come to earth to form a church. I think Jesus was more concerned about people's salvation than "hey let me create a church and then name the followers after myself"

I agree with your last point thought! lol

[agzg]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

According to dicionary.com, one of the definitions of catholic is
so the catechism may be referring to the ancient undivided church as opposed to the Roman Catholic church. I know in our hymnals (LCMS Lutheran) there's a footnote in the Apostle's Creed where it states the word Christian in one spot used to be catholic. I believe other denominations still use the term catholic when they recite the creed.

Or maybe Roman Catholics are really that self-centered.

United Methodists say "I believe in the holy Catholic Church," then there's a footnote that says "Universal."

I was wondering about the death penalty thing. If they can't vote for Obama because he's pro-choice, and they can't vote for McCain because he's pro-capital punishment... who are they supposed to vote for? Was there any candidate at any time that was against both?

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by OneTimeSBX

im nowhere near catholic, but is it just me, or does this seem like a way of "weeding out" the obama supporters, that way if you get up to do communion, but Mary next to you doesnt move this week after that comment...you can assume Mary might have voted for Obama...that makes for bad politics if you ask me. church shouldnt be about singling people out or letting it be known you arent as holy as the next person...that same person who voted for McCain might have other issues that would prevent them from taking communion...

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of Catholicism. On any Sunday many parishioners do not take the Eucharist because ANY unrepented mortal sin violates the state of grace necessary to receive it. Not just sins involving voting for pro-abortion politicians. No one is really being singled out. The Church is not about politics - bad or good. It is not a democracy. They do not take a poll before taking a stand, and on this issue the Church has resolutely stated its position. It has nothing to do with one parishioner being more or less holy than another.

The talk in this thread about the Church's position on various issues is somewhat disconcerting also. Things can't be taken out of context like that if they are to make complete sense. An understanding of the full teachings of the Church is necessary to truly understand a lot of these controversial topics.

My point is, if any of you wants to take issue with the Church's views, knock yourselves out and join a different church. But, bashing a religion that you do not understand is unfair.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

United Methodists say "I believe in the holy Catholic Church," then there's a footnote that says "Universal."

I was wondering about the death penalty thing. If they can't vote for Obama because he's pro-choice, and they can't vote for McCain because he's pro-capital punishment... who are they supposed to vote for? Was there any candidate at any time that was against both?

I would think in the churches that use the creed probably have the word catholic without a capital C - since that word is just an adjective meaning universal if not capitalized.

As to your other point - this is a constant source of discussion among many Catholics. There is no "Catholic party" with a candidate to vote for, and there never seems to be a candidate with a "perfect" Catholic platform. Typically the Bishops release a voter guide which deals with formulating a Catholic conscience in voting. They do not promote specific candidates or political parties. Part of the Catholic conscience idea involves reminders on Church teachings involving many things - social justice, war, death penalty, stem cell, and yes, abortion.

I think it is something of a fallacy that the Church is completely anti-death penalty. It isn't. Of course the Church's teachings on life certainly lean WAY to the side of no death penalty, but it isn't as absolute as abortion.

Back to the point though, the voter guides that I have read in my lifetime have addressed a necessary "evil" of choosing between imperfect candidates, because we have a duty to be voting citizens. While no candidate has been ideal, there is always one or more who is more acceptable to practicing Catholics than another.

[OneTimeSBX]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of Catholicism. On any Sunday many parishioners do not take the Eucharist because ANY unrepented mortal sin violates the state of grace necessary to receive it. Not just sins involving voting for pro-abortion politicians. No one is really being singled out. The Church is not about politics - bad or good. It is not a democracy. They do not take a poll before taking a stand, and on this issue the Church has resolutely stated its position. It has nothing to do with one parishioner being more or less holy than another.

The talk in this thread about the Church's position on various issues is somewhat disconcerting also. Things can't be taken out of context like that if they are to make complete sense. An understanding of the full teachings of the Church is necessary to truly understand a lot of these controversial topics.

My point is, if any of you wants to take issue with the Church's views, knock yourselves out and join a different church. But, bashing a religion that you do not understand is unfair.

i apologize if that came out wrong, like i said, i am not Catholic and dont think i know any (if they are, they havent mentioned it...) the idea i got from the article gave me the impression that the vote for Obama wasnt included in a list of things you couldnt take communion for. i stand corrected!

that belief of not taking it if you havent completed full repentance/forgiveness isnt just a Catholic thing either. i believe Jehovahs Witnesses do that as well...at least thats what my grandmother told me.

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

United Methodists say "I believe in the holy Catholic Church," then there's a footnote that says "Universal."

It's probably written "catholic" with a small "c". I was always told there's a difference between "small c" catholic (e.g., the Episcopalian/Anglican church) and "large c" Catholic. The Roman Catholics have basically co-opted the term "catholic" and teaches that it is the "one true" Church to its followers.


ETA: irishpipes beat me to it!

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

Again, this shows a misunderstanding of Catholicism. On any Sunday many parishioners do not take the Eucharist because ANY unrepented mortal sin violates the state of grace necessary to receive it. Not just sins involving voting for pro-abortion politicians.

I'm not sure if many churches are this strict anymore, but I remember growing up as a kid, we lived by the "no food for 1 hour" before Mass. So you either got up early and ate breakfast in time for there to be at least an hour between when you ate and Mass, or you waited until after. When we'd complain, my Mom would remind us how in her day they couldn't even have a drink of water before they went to Mass (big, old church in downtown Philly, Mass was in Latin), so they'd brush their teeth but couldn't even take a sip of water while they were doing it. AND, if they forgot to wear a hat, they would put a tissue over their head because their head couldn't be uncovered. Hard core!

ETA: And so my point is, there would be people that wouldn't go up for communion, but for all you know it was because they'd just had a big family breakfast at Bob's Big Boy or back in Mom's day, it could have meant someone forgot and had a drink of water or cup of coffee before they left for Mass

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

I'm not sure if many churches are this strict anymore, but I remember growing up as a kid, we lived by the "no food for 1 hour" before Mass. So you either got up early and ate breakfast in time for there to be at least an hour between when you ate and Mass, or you waited until after. When we'd complain, my Mom would remind us how in her day they couldn't even have a drink of water before they went to Mass (big, old church in downtown Philly, Mass was in Latin), so they'd brush their teeth but couldn't even take a sip of water while they were doing it. AND, if they forgot to wear a hat, they would put a tissue over their head because their head couldn't be uncovered

I fast from midnight before Divine Liturgy and I cover as well. (I'm Orthodox.) We stand for the majority of the service and actually have a little snack together afterwards every Sunday because we're all about to fall out. It's basically a twelve hour fast each Sunday. But, in reality, I find that it focuses me a lot more on what's happening. The same goes for fasting from meat on Wednesdays and Fridays. It's recentering.

[SWTXBelle]

One reason I make sure to specify the ROMAN Catholic church when discussing it is because as an Anglican I state that I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church every Sunday. My denomination can properly be described as Anglo-Catholic, so there you go. Given the influence of the Roman Catholic church throughout the history of Christianity I am surprised more Christians aren't more educated about it. I've met nominal Roman Catholics who weren't as conversant with their church doctrine as I was.

Also, many Christians believe the church is not an institution as much as it is the body of Christ here on earth. The church is the people, not the building.

eta - I was reminded of the scene in "Angela's Ashes" when Frank throws up after his first communion, and there is a debate as to how to clean it up. With holy water??!!

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

One reason I make sure to specify the ROMAN Catholic church when discussing it is because as an Anglican I state that I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church every Sunday. My denomination can properly be described as Anglo-Catholic, so there you go. Given the influence of the Roman Catholic church throughout the history of Christianity I am surprised more Christians aren't more educated about it. I've met nominal Roman Catholics who weren't as conversant with their church doctrine as I was.

Probably a very American phenomenon.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Probably a very American phenomenon.

Oh, I've known quite a few Brits in the same boat. For that matter, I've known Methodists who have no idea of the role of the Anglican church in their formation. And Presbyterians who would not hire any but Presbys for their classical academy - which means they would not hire Dorothy Sayers or C.S. Lewis, two important (and Anglican!) figures in the formation of classical education as we know it today. I will admit that I'm lucky - my husband has a master's in divinity from Yale, so any questions I have regarding various denominations' beliefs are easily answered. I also find it fascinating to read about other denominations. I recently went to a Greek Orthodox funeral, which was interesting.

eta - back on topic. Have there been any reports as to the parishoners' reactions to the letter from the priest? Or from his bishop?

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

Your definition of grace is not the issue here, and your post indicates that you do not understand Catholic teachings on grace or of ordination and priesthood.

No, but MY DEFINITION OF GRACE is a key part in the formation of MY OPINION which I'm perfectly within right to state on a public forum.

I understand perfectly well the difference between the "Catholic" definition of grace and my own. I went to a Catholic high school and thus spent a year intensely studying the the basics of the faith as per graduation requirement. My post indicates that grace as illustrated by the actual teachings and stories of Christ should not be revised by anyone except for the One from whom it is comes. Therefore, the Church twisting and limiting such a thing by conditions other than those set forth by the Bible and calling it "grace" is misleading and unfair. This discussion is not based on whoever knows more about Catholicism and not only those baptized into it may have an opinion about it. And let's face it, this entire thread is (unless citations are provided) little more than 7 pages worth of people's opinions.

ETA: Irish, if I sound like I'm snapping at you (and in a mild way I might be) it's partially because I'm having a horrible week and partially because your post toward me came off as snotty on my end. I know it's not your fault how I read your words, but I'm letting you know that, as more and more people are seeming to pass judgement on the faith, your posts are looking frustrated and defensive. At least from where I'm sitting. I'm not purposely trying to offend you or what you believe in.

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

If they can't vote for Obama because he's pro-choice, and they can't vote for McCain because he's pro-capital punishment... who are they supposed to vote for? Was there any candidate at any time that was against both?

IDK, my bff Huckabee?

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by christiangirl

ETA: Irish, if I sound like I'm snapping at you (and in a mild way I might be) it's partially because I'm having a horrible week and partially because your post toward me came off as snotty on my end. I know it's not your fault how I read your words, but I'm letting you know that, as more and more people are seeming to pass judgement on the faith, your posts are looking frustrated and defensive. At least from where I'm sitting. I'm not purposely trying to offend you or what you believe in.

Snap all you want. None of this is new territory. Catholics have been bashed for ages, and will continue to be as long as they uphold their strong positions. If I sound defensive, it is because I am attepting to defend the Catholic faith. Defending requires defensiveness, no?

As for the grace topic, I take no issue that you have your opinion! I haven't said otherwise, but to hold a Roman Catholic priest to your definition when he is speaking to parishioners who are supposed to share his definition is where I take issue. Does that make sense? It isn't as if that priest was telling non-Catholics what they have to believe. If he were, I would completely understand if you would take offense. That isn't what happened, though.

I think it is interesting that you think I sound frustrated and defensive out of all the posters in this thread. I haven't called names like others have or lost my temper. I am merely addressing fallacies. Don't get me wrong, it is frustrating to have people of other faiths, or those who have chosen to leave the Catholic faith, bash it. But, I haven't said a word ridiculing or judging their faiths, as some have mine. Each person has a choice in their religion. I respect that, but some don't return that respect. So I wonder why you are telling me that I am the one coming off bad here. But like I said, snap all you want. The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom should I fear?