Quota Additions at Super Competitive Schools

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by ADqtPiMel

Seriously. The chapter I advise would typically love to offer a bid to most of the PNMs who attend our round BEFORE pref. It's incredibly difficult to cut down to the number we invite back for pref. I just can't fathom a "strong recruiting" chapter having women at pref that they don't like.

It's sounding like it's not really that they don't like them but that they blame the QAs for the absence of their rush crush. Which means that someone is not protecting the bid list, and someone else is not explaining what QAs are to chapter members and verbally hitting them upside the head for being idiots and rude about their NMs. NMs who were on their bid list, and who WANT to be there.

[AOII Angel]

Oh, I am quite sure that the issue is always one of misunderstanding. No one knows who the QAs are, but women will pick out who they think they are because that's who THEY wouldn't have wanted. Catty women can find reasons to be unhappy no matter what perfect situation you give them. Discovering that not everyone is perfectly happy on bid day in the top chapters shouldn't be a complete surprise. The grass is always greener on the other side.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Oh, I am quite sure that the issue is always one of misunderstanding. No one knows who the QAs are, but women will pick out who they think they are because that's who THEY wouldn't have wanted. Catty women can find reasons to be unhappy no matter what perfect situation you give them. Discovering that not everyone is perfectly happy on bid day in the top chapters shouldn't be a complete surprise. The grass is always greener on the other side.

However, the comments that started this conversation came from a) an advisor and b) indicated specifically that these were women from "way down under" and were "not a blessing."

THAT is where there's a serious breakdown in the process. Isn't it the advisor's job to straighten the actives out - whether redirecting their attitudes or correcting their creation of a bidlist that contains PNMs they do not want. I'd started to give it some slack, because of later comments, but the original comment highlights the problem here.

[GammaPhi88]

What I am hoping posters here mean by "less loved PNMs" are the ones that they liked enough to invite to pref (and, essentially, place on their bidlist), but are not necessarily the chapter wide "rush crushes", or women that have been talked up ad nauseam throughout recruitment. They think..."Okay, we got these girls and they seem pretty good, but we didn't get SUPER PNM PATTY who HAD to be higher on our bidlist...NOT FAIR!" Some PNMs are generally very visible to a chapter during recruitment, and when these PNMs do not choose the chapter on bid day, many chapters, especially the strong ones, may see women they may have liked but not LOVED, and determine the whole thing unfair and blame quota additions. Or they think that because those women are not there, they had to dip far lower onto the bid list, which may not be the case.

The funny thing to me, is that after a few years of recruitment, I've noticed that these members who were more under the radar during recruitment often become some of the best members. While I felt welcomed into my chapter, I don't think I was some sort of PNM superstar, and I know I surprised a bunch of older actives by being as active as I was in the Greek community. Often (but not always), SUPER PNM pledges and is either all about partying or generally not that involved.

[carnation]

Fabulous points, GammaPhi88!

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

No you don't. You're recommended not to cut past a certain number, or at all, but you can always cut more than that.

At our school there is no deviation. If Panhel tells you to invite back 250 you invite back 250 not one over and not one under. Prior to RFM there used to be a little play in the numbers, but not any more. They will not even take your list, in fact, the computer will not accept it if the correct amount of invites are not on it.

[OleMissGlitter]

Originally Posted by GammaPhi88

What I am hoping posters here mean by "less loved PNMs" are the ones that they liked enough to invite to pref (and, essentially, place on their bidlist), but are not necessarily the chapter wide "rush crushes", or women that have been talked up ad nauseam throughout recruitment. They think..."Okay, we got these girls and they seem pretty good, but we didn't get SUPER PNM PATTY who HAD to be higher on our bidlist...NOT FAIR!" Some PNMs are generally very visible to a chapter during recruitment, and when these PNMs do not choose the chapter on bid day, many chapters, especially the strong ones, may see women they may have liked but not LOVED, and determine the whole thing unfair and blame quota additions. Or they think that because those women are not there, they had to dip far lower onto the bid list, which may not be the case.

The funny thing to me, is that after a few years of recruitment, I've noticed that these members who were more under the radar during recruitment often become some of the best members. While I felt welcomed into my chapter, I don't think I was some sort of PNM superstar, and I know I surprised a bunch of older actives by being as active as I was in the Greek community. Often (but not always), SUPER PNM pledges and is either all about partying or generally not that involved.

Fabulous points GammaPhi88. Totally agree about the "under the radar" PNMs....in my 8 years of advising I can honestly say they are some of the best NMs. I can think of a few "rush crushes/tip tops" who ended up being not-so-great!

I also think this is where Recs can be super important. Often PNMs who are "not on the radar" might have a glowing rec. I know sometimes these PNMs might not have any "internal cheerleaders" cheering them on within the chapter, but a glowing/fabulous rec can help to create some cheering!

ETA:

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

At our school there is no deviation. If Panhel tells you to invite back 250 you invite back 250 not one over and not one under. Prior to RFM there used to be a little play in the numbers, but not any more. They will not even take your list, in fact, the computer will not accept it if the correct amount of invites are not on it.

I was told as long as the chapter's NPC Delegate and Fraternity Sorority Adviser were informed the chapter was not sticking to the release figures they DO NOT have to follow those figures. Of course they are not guaranteed quota and it will probably mess up numbers for other chapters on campus. I know of a chapter on a campus who did release more than the release figure given to them and they didn’t make quota. I know the FSA pleaded with them but they refused saying those women they were releasing did not meet their minimum requirements. This campus uses a computer program (ICS) so I know they were able to do it. It might vary campus to campus.

So that brings me to this question (because I really don't have an answer)....Are we starting to see the "flaws" in RFM? Thoughts?

[AXOrushadvisor]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

However, the comments that started this conversation came from a) an advisor and b) indicated specifically that these were women from "way down under" and were "not a blessing."

THAT is where there's a serious breakdown in the process. Isn't it the advisor's job to straighten the actives out - whether redirecting their attitudes or correcting their creation of a bidlist that contains PNMs they do not want. I'd started to give it some slack, because of later comments, but the original comment highlights the problem here.

No, my job is not to create a bidlist that contains only PNM's that they want. It is not my Chapter nor am I an active member in it. I have no voting rights nor would I want to. I'm there to Advise them. Nor is it my job to straighten out the actives or their votes. There is a system in place that is used across the country. My job is to make sure they follow the rules of the voting system. My job is NOT to manipulate who they will invite back. When I say there may be girls on the bid list that become members that are from way down on the bidlist it doesn't mean they are "disliked" it simply means that if there were no quota additions they would not have made the cut. I probably shouldn't have used the term "not a blessing" in conjunction with QA's because frankly that term could be used on several of the girls not necessarily a QA. In fact, I couldn't even tell you at this point who was a QA from fall unless I looked at the list.

You are right, if they are invited to Pref some one some where liked them enough for them to be invited. Again the active members have no idea who is a QA because they do not see the bid list only the Advisors do.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

No, my job is not to create a bidlist that contains only PNM's that they want. It is not my Chapter nor am I an active member in it. I have no voting rights nor would I want to. I'm there to Advise them.

Right, and you advise them that anyone on the bid list could get a bid. You also advise them not to bitch about new members, that QAs are not responsible for their rush crush not being there on bid day, etc. That's what I assume advisers do everywhere. When 18-22 year old women start acting like catty teenagers, the adviser pokes in to say that they're being ridiculous. I'm not saying you write the bid list yourself, that's also ridiculous.

Additionally it was YOUR response about not being a blessing and "way down under" that was my biggest red flag.

Nor is it my job to straighten out the actives or their votes. There is a system in place that is used across the country. My job is to make sure they follow the rules of the voting system. My job is NOT to manipulate who they will invite back.

Stating that everyone who is invited to pref is on the bidlist and that they should consider that carefully when voting is somehow manipulative? So is stating that every new member is AWESOME and none are NOT A BLESSING or came from WAY DOWN ON THE BIDLIST, totally manipulative too?

When I say there may be girls on the bid list that become members that are from way down on the bidlist it doesn't mean they are "disliked" it simply means that if there were no quota additions they would not have made the cut. I probably shouldn't have used the term "not a blessing" in conjunction with QA's because frankly that term could be used on several of the girls not necessarily a QA. In fact, I couldn't even tell you at this point who was a QA from fall unless I looked at the list.

While that's nice now, that's not the impression you gave at all.

You are right, if they are invited to Pref some one some where liked them enough for them to be invited. Again the active members have no idea who is a QA because they do not see the bid list only the Advisors do.

Which is a huge change in your original story.

Originally Posted by AXOrushadvisor

At our school there is no deviation. If Panhel tells you to invite back 250 you invite back 250 not one over and not one under. Prior to RFM there used to be a little play in the numbers, but not any more. They will not even take your list, in fact, the computer will not accept it if the correct amount of invites are not on it.

I'm fairly certain that that's not acceptable because schools cannot force chapters to bid people they do not wish to bid. I'd talk to an NPC rep or an HQ rep about that.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by OleMissGlitter

I know of a chapter on a campus who did release more than the release figure given to them and they didn’t make quota. I know the FSA pleaded with them but they refused saying those women they were releasing did not meet their minimum requirements. This campus uses a computer program (ICS) so I know they were able to do it. It might vary campus to campus.

So that brings me to this question (because I really don't have an answer)....Are we starting to see the "flaws" in RFM? Thoughts?

Was this past the point when women get released for grades? If not, I'm thinking maybe it would be a good idea for that Panhel's minimum grade requirement to be more in line with the chapter policies (i.e. don't let women with a 2.2 rush when the minimum for every chapter is a 3.0).

Obviously one of the flaws is going to be the intangibility of why people get cut. On one hand a chapter should never be forced to invite women who don't meet grade requirements, who have serious personal problems with members...on the other, you can say "they don't meet our requirements" and also assert that you don't have to tell why, because that's private MS information, whether that's the truth or not. I'm more inclined to say if a chapter wants to cut their pref party list down to one member over quota, even if it is for spectacularly lame reasons, that's their prerogative. They're the ones who have to hash it out with their alumnae or national poobahs or whoever...Panhel is blameless. I'd rather see a chapter cut too harshly instead of giving women false hope (whether they're doing it themselves or RFM is making them do it).

[AOII Angel]

I've worked with a chapter that didn't keep the number suggested by CPC. I obviously can't get into why bc of the whole ritual thing. The chapter in question did NOT make quota that year. They were not eligible for QAs. They actually had just the number of women at Pref to fill a pledge class including all of their parties. As an advisor, I thought this was incredibly stupid, but the collegians had no problem with it. The threw a couple COB parties and picked up girls they wanted, and that was the end of it. I don't know how much the Chapter Advisor had to go through to make this go through, but I have the impression as a high functioning chapter, it wasn't much.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by GammaPhi88

What I am hoping posters here mean by "less loved PNMs" are the ones that they liked enough to invite to pref (and, essentially, place on their bidlist), but are not necessarily the chapter wide "rush crushes", or women that have been talked up ad nauseam throughout recruitment. They think..."Okay, we got these girls and they seem pretty good, but we didn't get SUPER PNM PATTY who HAD to be higher on our bidlist...NOT FAIR!" Some PNMs are generally very visible to a chapter during recruitment, and when these PNMs do not choose the chapter on bid day, many chapters, especially the strong ones, may see women they may have liked but not LOVED, and determine the whole thing unfair and blame quota additions. Or they think that because those women are not there, they had to dip far lower onto the bid list, which may not be the case.

The funny thing to me, is that after a few years of recruitment, I've noticed that these members who were more under the radar during recruitment often become some of the best members. While I felt welcomed into my chapter, I don't think I was some sort of PNM superstar, and I know I surprised a bunch of older actives by being as active as I was in the Greek community. Often (but not always), SUPER PNM pledges and is either all about partying or generally not that involved.

True story.

We joke about Murphy's Laws of Recruitment.

One of them is that the ONE PNM that everyone is so OMGILOVEHEROMG!!!!!!11111 will most likely do one of the following things:

*Sit around and do nothing. Then drop out before initiation.
*End up causing some huge drama, then quitting.
*hang around til sophomore year, then drop out because "it's like, not fun anymore."

Don't flame me, I know there are exceptions. I just have yet to see Holy Grail PNM work out as well as chapters would like.

[OleMissGlitter]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

True story.

We joke about Murphy's Laws of Recruitment.

One of them is that the ONE PNM that everyone is so OMGILOVEHEROMG!!!!!!11111 will most likely do one of the following things:

*Sit around and do nothing. Then drop out before initiation.
*End up causing some huge drama, then quitting.
*hang around til sophomore year, then drop out because "it's like, not fun anymore."Don't flame me, I know there are exceptions. I just have yet to see Holy Grail PNM work out as well as chapters would like.

SO TRUE!!!! (Is it bad I have faces flashing through my head when I read this!!!)

[gee_ess]

Originally Posted by OleMissGlitter

So that brings me to this question (because I really don't have an answer)....Are we starting to see the "flaws" in RFM? Thoughts?

I'm late to this discussion but I am one who thinks we are definitely seeing some flaws in RFM. RFM has a lot of good points, and I think I understand the inception, and birth ot it. However, somewhere along the way, a monster was created - the monster of 'everyone gets a bid, QA's are plentiful, and pledge classes are now over 100 on many campuses.

The heavy cuts mandated for stronger chapters after round one make sense but (and woe to me for even suggesting this) I think another, equally heavy cut needs to happen just before pref.

And, on another note, my experience with QA's is that they are very, very often great, contributing members (just not superstar pnms but loved enough to get to pref). As an advisor, I often got quite a kick out of watching a QA from the previous year take a positive, leadership/active role in recruitment the next year. (keeping in mind that only I knew she was a QA,of course)

[carnation]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

And, on another note, my experience with QA's is that they are very, very often great, contributing members (just not superstar pnms but loved enough to get to pref). As an advisor, I often got quite a kick out of watching a QA from the previous year take a positive, leadership/active role in recruitment the next year. (keeping in mind that only I knew she was a QA,of course)

^^^ Like!