Study: You may be more racist than you think

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Hmmm... You're right. It's alright to have an opinion. I guess I'm speaking strong opinions in the sense of "OMG, NO I'M RIGHT, IT'S MY OPINION, DON'T FORCE YOUR OPINION ON ME."

I've railed against this same thing recently, but I think it's even more general than this.

It's fine to have strong opinions - we have some intelligent people on this board, and some half-tards, and expressing opinions helps us not only differentiate between the two, but bridge the gap as well.

The defense mechanism you've noted is the frustrating part - if you express a strong opinion, then you have to be willing to have others judge the logic and utility of that opinion. To put it bluntly, your opinion may be wrong, or poorly formed, or misguided.

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Sometimes [strong opinions] are OK. Political stuff, at least it's more appropriate than here. Racially charged issues, and I suppose this is my strong opinion, are not the threads where a white girl should jump in and say how mean someone is for calling her a cracker.

Actually, I disagree - the real 'problem' with race-issue threads on GC is that everyone wants to run from them. There's no reason they can't have the same caliber, depth and emotion of discussion that is held in other areas. (Note: yeah, I do understand that there are indeed 'reasons' why these threads devolve, but at least in theory, there aren't any endemic reasons)

Besides this - as my favorite comedian once said, if a friend owes you $200 and won't repay . . . hey, at least it only cost you $200.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Actually, I disagree - the real 'problem' with race-issue threads on GC is that everyone wants to run from them. There's no reason they can't have the same caliber, depth and emotion of discussion that is held in other areas.

Besides this - as my favorite comedian once said, if a friend owes you $200 and won't repay . . . hey, at least it only cost you $200.

Perhaps the reason why people run from them, however, is that either people are posting completely inflammatory remarks, or they dismiss your thoughts because you "just don't understand." This thread, for the first couple of pages, was not the norm. The thoughtfulness of the posters in their responses was actually impressive.

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet. Someone posts something slightly inflammatory (and I'm not going to go into who that was or why they did it), and let the flaming commence. Name calling, bringing up other threads where the posters have a disagreement, etc.

No one wants to jump in the middle of that. I suppose that's where I base my opinion. It's just amazing to me how sometimes one bad apple (and again, I'm not going to go into who the bad apple is, because depending on what view you have, I could even be the bad apple) can spoil the bunch, and it seems that the bunch gets spoiled more quickly in racially charged threads.

ETA: And for whatever reason, lately, threads regarding Bush. It always seems to be liberals calling other liberals conservatives. I don't even know what any of that is about.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet.

I kept waiting for one of those "arguing on the internet" graphics.

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Perhaps the reason why people run from them, however, is that either people are posting completely inflammatory remarks, or they dismiss your thoughts because you "just don't understand." This thread, for the first couple of pages, was not the norm. The thoughtfulness of the posters in their responses was actually impressive.

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet. Someone posts something slightly inflammatory (and I'm not going to go into who that was or why they did it), and let the flaming commence. Name calling, bringing up other threads where the posters have a disagreement, etc.

No one wants to jump in the middle of that. I suppose that's where I base my opinion. It's just amazing to me how sometimes one bad apple (and again, I'm not going to go into who the bad apple is, because depending on what view you have, I could even be the bad apple) can spoil the bunch, and it seems that the bunch gets spoiled more quickly in racially charged threads.

ETA: And for whatever reason, lately, threads regarding Bush. It always seems to be liberals calling other liberals conservatives. I don't even know what any of that is about.

Bullshit from another thread was brought here...personally my posts about this particularly topic weren't terribly opinionated.

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

I attempted to have a conversation with Monet but quickly realized that was just another way to fuck with me so I bowed out.

I wish it were possible to just have a conversation in a thread such as this, but for various reasons it doesn't appear to be. What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions. Saying "u don't kno wut ur talkin about so stfu" isn't effective as it effectively blocks out all opportunity to LEARN. What is the point in discussing a topic that has so many different viewpoints if not to educate each other?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I wish it were possible to just have a conversation in a thread such as this, but for various reasons it doesn't appear to be. What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions. Saying "u don't kno wut ur talkin about so stfu" isn't effective as it effectively blocks out all opportunity to LEARN. What is the point in discussing a topic that has so many different viewpoints if not to educate each other?

Oh please. Why don't you try learning from what other people are posting. The fact that it's "OMG YOUR OPINION" does not close the door to someone questioning your logic, or questioning your opinion. And there's really no reason to be offended by that. Had you left out the craziness involving pj or monet from previous threads, I doubt you would have had as big a flamewar going on. FWIW, you brought up the other threads to pj by saying "is it possible to communicate without being condescending and rude?" Just to keep the record straight.

Please see:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

The defense mechanism you've noted is the frustrating part - if you express a strong opinion, then you have to be willing to have others judge the logic and utility of that opinion. To put it bluntly, your opinion may be wrong, or poorly formed, or misguided.

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

Once again:

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

Here's the thing: hazing/bullying requires a group effort. That really doesn't exist here - especially not in this sort of thread.

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I attempted to have a conversation with Monet but quickly realized that was just another way to fuck with me so I bowed out.

Nah, it's just that there are various parts of conversing with Monet that are quite unique.

Originally Posted by LΩVE

What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions.

There's a perception issue here in the sentence I deleted (because I'm barely going to address that) - that's because people who have advanced knowledge on a topic can come across as condescending when, in fact, they're not intending to be, and because people hate to feel inferior, abased or subjugated so they react harshly.

Here's the thing, though - when your doctor gives a diagnosis, you don't expect your opinion of illness to be taken as on par with the doctor's. When your attorney gives you legal advice, you'd assume a lay opinion would not be on equal footing or be taken with equal consideration.

So, along the same lines, when people with advanced knowledge of this subject drop some knowledge, don't think that it is meant to 'negate' your opinion, but rather to inform you of places where your opinion may be misguided, or to inform you of biases, beliefs or experiences that may color your opinion in ways you don't expect.

Nothing can "negate" an opinion. That doesn't mean all opinions are correct or well-founded, or that there is no way for knowledge to be interjected. It also doesn't mean your opinion isn't valuable - it's just not equally valuable as facts and knowledge.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Actually, I disagree - the real 'problem' with race-issue threads on GC is that everyone wants to run from them. There's no reason they can't have the same caliber, depth and emotion of discussion that is held in other areas. (Note: yeah, I do understand that there are indeed 'reasons' why these threads devolve, but at least in theory, there aren't any endemic reasons)

Besides this - as my favorite comedian once said, if a friend owes you $200 and won't repay . . . hey, at least it only cost you $200.

The "type of people" who run from race (and any other socially significant) threads on GC are the type of people who run from them in real life.

[AOII Angel]

Back to the topic...I think everyone has "racist" tendencies. We are evolutionarily made to suspect "other" and prefer "same." We congregate in groups for safety. Unfortunately, we cannot often control our basic tendencies to show preference, but we have also evolved to use reason to overcome our baser instincts. What I find a sad is that society has been able to ingrain a fear of black people into black people themselves. There have been some very interesting studies that black and white people show the same bias against black faces (they had research subjects hit a button to ascribe good vs evil qualities to words, colors then faces...most people would automatically pick evil for black faces.) We still have more work to do to convince people that they should ignore these ingrained beliefs and TRY to be better. Each generation is improving...

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Back to the topic...I think everyone has "racist" tendencies. We are evolutionarily made to suspect "other" and prefer "same." We congregate in groups for safety. Unfortunately, we cannot often control our basic tendencies to show preference, but we have also evolved to use reason to overcome our baser instincts. What I find a sad is that society has been able to ingrain a fear of black people into black people themselves. There have been some very interesting studies that black and white people show the same bias against black faces (they had research subjects hit a button to ascribe good vs evil qualities to words, colors then faces...most people would automatically pick evil for black faces.) We still have more work to do to convince people that they should ignore these ingrained beliefs and TRY to be better. Each generation is improving...

Prejudice

Racism

Discrimination

Different constructs.

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Back to the topic...I think everyone has "racist" tendencies. We are evolutionarily made to suspect "other" and prefer "same." We congregate in groups for safety. Unfortunately, we cannot often control our basic tendencies to show preference, but we have also evolved to use reason to overcome our baser instincts. What I find a sad is that society has been able to ingrain a fear of black people into black people themselves. There have been some very interesting studies that black and white people show the same bias against black faces (they had research subjects hit a button to ascribe good vs evil qualities to words, colors then faces...most people would automatically pick evil for black faces.) We still have more work to do to convince people that they should ignore these ingrained beliefs and TRY to be better. Each generation is improving...

I have this feeling, sadly, that in some pockets of populations it won't entirely disappear, at least not in our lifetimes. On the other hand, brushing aside my own personal opinions on the matter, I have heard many people say they truly feel more inspired than ever before because of Obama's election. It is progress that our country was willing to elect someone for their merits and not their skin color.

[agzg]

I don't like the Special Olympics one, so here's a different one:



Now your day is complete, pj.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

I don't like the Special Olympics one, so here's a different one:



Now your day is complete, pj.

That one's cute!! LOL!

[agzg]

FWIW, there were two POSTS. Obviously I replied to one of them. In fact, when I quoted your first post, your second post had not come through. Chew that.

I question your logic. There is not as much connotation or power behind "snowflake" as there is behind racial slurs against minorities. Maybe, MAYBE words like "cracker" or "whitie," but certainly not frosted flakes, barbie, or what have you.

When white people are oppressed by a majority, then they can say that. Personally, gender-specific slurs are more offensive to me. If someone wants to call me a cracker, let them. I'm much more offended if someone calls me the c-word.

Next:
Cut it out with the hazing crap. This is not hazing. Those posters that have called you out on general douchebaggery are not in concordance with one another. We're not trying to "make your life miserable."

If you didn't start a flamewar everywhere you post when someone questions what you post as your opinion, you will notice that in general, we do "play nice."

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

FWIW, there were two POSTS. Obviously I replied to one of them. In fact, when I quoted your first post, your second post had not come through. Chew that.

I question your logic. There is not as much connotation or power behind "snowflake" as there is behind racial slurs against minorities. Maybe, MAYBE words like "cracker" or "whitie," but certainly not frosted flakes, barbie, or what have you.

When white people are oppressed by a majority, then they can say that. Personally, gender-specific slurs are more offensive to me. If someone wants to call me a cracker, let them. I'm much more offended if someone calls me the c-word.

Next:
Cut it out with the hazing crap. This is not hazing. Those posters that have called you out on general douchebaggery are not in concordance with one another. We're not trying to "make your life miserable."

If you didn't start a flamewar everywhere you post when someone questions what you post as your opinion, you will notice that in general, we do "play nice."

I wasn't the one who originally posted the comment on the "Bring it On" sequel.

No, "snowflake" is not exactly loaded, but the poster's point was that even had the word "honky" or "cracker" been used it would've been accepted because it is acceptable to use racial slurs against white people. I agree that it would've caused little uproar for two reasons: first because "white people" who are educated are often so PC that they are afraid to react to that sort of behavior. I am not ignorant of the difference in situations, I have just said, and stand by this, that it shouldn't be ok as it does upset people. If someone calls me a cracker they are calling me a racist pig, essentially, and I absolutely find that offensive. What I feel is that I should not have to simply accept that because I am white. I think it is ok to be offended and to say so. The second reason it often causes no uproar is that some "white people" just aren't offended. This is of course a reasonable reaction as well. It just depends on the person. I guess what bothers me most about the issue is that it's somehow ok because it's "getting even". The concept of "sins of the father" isn't one I personally believe in. That just creates a never ending circle where a victim becomes a perpetrator and vice versa, each trying to top the other to "get even".

I question the logic that because "white people haven't been oppressed" they have no right to be offended. See the above paragraph. By that logic eventually the tables could be turned. Some people think "fair is fair" but two wrongs don't make a right in my mind. Getting even never ends.

Fine if you aren't offended by racial slurs, I am and remain so. As for gender issues, that is of course an entirely different topic, but how about this: In society now it's often seen as acceptable to use gender-related slurs and debasing jokes against men because for most of modern history men have been in charge. So somehow turning the tables seems ok. It's more of the "getting even" attitude. Does that make it ok? Yes, women have been oppressed by men historically, but does that mean that my boyfriend is a pig, even though he's respectful of women?

The rationalization for being completely rude to me in the first place is because I'm "new". Here's what I am NOT going to let happen: no one gets to be a bitch then turn it around on me and expect me to lie down and take it. It isn't going to work that way. The logic that someone who calls names and can't let it go is applauded for telling me I'm behaving in a juvenile manner is both amusing and irritating. Both of us were behaving like juveniles-it's the inability to accept that on the part of the other party that kept it going. There's a solution if you don't like it: don't engage. People who are rude can expect it back from me, and if they don't want to deal with it they can avoid it by either being civil or not speaking to me at all.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I question the logic that because "white people haven't been oppressed" they have no right to be offended.

Did someone say that? (serious question, I didn't read these posts)