Study: You may be more racist than you think

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Actually, I disagree - the real 'problem' with race-issue threads on GC is that everyone wants to run from them. There's no reason they can't have the same caliber, depth and emotion of discussion that is held in other areas.

Besides this - as my favorite comedian once said, if a friend owes you $200 and won't repay . . . hey, at least it only cost you $200.

Perhaps the reason why people run from them, however, is that either people are posting completely inflammatory remarks, or they dismiss your thoughts because you "just don't understand." This thread, for the first couple of pages, was not the norm. The thoughtfulness of the posters in their responses was actually impressive.

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet. Someone posts something slightly inflammatory (and I'm not going to go into who that was or why they did it), and let the flaming commence. Name calling, bringing up other threads where the posters have a disagreement, etc.

No one wants to jump in the middle of that. I suppose that's where I base my opinion. It's just amazing to me how sometimes one bad apple (and again, I'm not going to go into who the bad apple is, because depending on what view you have, I could even be the bad apple) can spoil the bunch, and it seems that the bunch gets spoiled more quickly in racially charged threads.

ETA: And for whatever reason, lately, threads regarding Bush. It always seems to be liberals calling other liberals conservatives. I don't even know what any of that is about.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet.

I kept waiting for one of those "arguing on the internet" graphics.

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Perhaps the reason why people run from them, however, is that either people are posting completely inflammatory remarks, or they dismiss your thoughts because you "just don't understand." This thread, for the first couple of pages, was not the norm. The thoughtfulness of the posters in their responses was actually impressive.

Many threads that get started based on racial issues digress into the shitstorm that we saw between Love, pj, and monet. Someone posts something slightly inflammatory (and I'm not going to go into who that was or why they did it), and let the flaming commence. Name calling, bringing up other threads where the posters have a disagreement, etc.

No one wants to jump in the middle of that. I suppose that's where I base my opinion. It's just amazing to me how sometimes one bad apple (and again, I'm not going to go into who the bad apple is, because depending on what view you have, I could even be the bad apple) can spoil the bunch, and it seems that the bunch gets spoiled more quickly in racially charged threads.

ETA: And for whatever reason, lately, threads regarding Bush. It always seems to be liberals calling other liberals conservatives. I don't even know what any of that is about.

Bullshit from another thread was brought here...personally my posts about this particularly topic weren't terribly opinionated.

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

I attempted to have a conversation with Monet but quickly realized that was just another way to fuck with me so I bowed out.

I wish it were possible to just have a conversation in a thread such as this, but for various reasons it doesn't appear to be. What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions. Saying "u don't kno wut ur talkin about so stfu" isn't effective as it effectively blocks out all opportunity to LEARN. What is the point in discussing a topic that has so many different viewpoints if not to educate each other?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I wish it were possible to just have a conversation in a thread such as this, but for various reasons it doesn't appear to be. What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions. Saying "u don't kno wut ur talkin about so stfu" isn't effective as it effectively blocks out all opportunity to LEARN. What is the point in discussing a topic that has so many different viewpoints if not to educate each other?

Oh please. Why don't you try learning from what other people are posting. The fact that it's "OMG YOUR OPINION" does not close the door to someone questioning your logic, or questioning your opinion. And there's really no reason to be offended by that. Had you left out the craziness involving pj or monet from previous threads, I doubt you would have had as big a flamewar going on. FWIW, you brought up the other threads to pj by saying "is it possible to communicate without being condescending and rude?" Just to keep the record straight.

Please see:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

The defense mechanism you've noted is the frustrating part - if you express a strong opinion, then you have to be willing to have others judge the logic and utility of that opinion. To put it bluntly, your opinion may be wrong, or poorly formed, or misguided.

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

Once again:

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by alphagamzetagam

Oh please. Why don't you try learning from what other people are posting. The fact that it's "OMG YOUR OPINION" does not close the door to someone questioning your logic, or questioning your opinion. And there's really no reason to be offended by that. Had you left out the craziness involving pj or monet from previous threads. FWIW, you brought up the other threads to pj by saying "is it possible to communicate without being condescending and rude?" Just to keep the record straight.

Please see:







Once again:

Here's what I'd like to learn:

Other peoples' opinion on the topic at hand, their experiences, and especially information that people who ARE experts have to offer.

Here's what I'm not interested in learning:

How to "behave" like an adult while being talked down to and called names. Wah. There was one thread involved, and Monet was not part of it. And yes, I did comment on the rudeness. Again, no one here is going to get to bully me. I responded to their post on a thread, they responded by calling me a little girl and advising me to act like an adult then brought the attitude problem here. I'm not playing...it will be dished right back, and I certainly don't need "adult" lessons from someone who can't behave like one themselves. Everyone has their moments, but I can do without the hypocritic nonsense.

Questioning logic/opinion do not offend me. What did offend me was the fact that instead of questioning my logic or opinion, I found myself repeating everything I had said while my posts were twisted into unrecognizable masses or were simply not read at all yet responded to. It was obviously meant to be a one sided conversation and I caused a problem by actually participating.

And, once again, I'm not interested in being hazed on the internetz. If someone wants me to play nice they can play nice with me. Otherwise I will give back what I am getting.

Here's something to chew: there were two parts to my post, one certainly about the topic at hand. Choosing to ignore that completely in favor of engaging in asinine condescension isn't going to bring the thread back around. It takes two.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I'm not really concerned about my popularity on the internetz lol!!!11!! so I'll just say I'm not up to play the hazing/bullying game here because I'm "new". I don't have incentive to act like the "adult", especially when the "adults" cannot behave as such themselves. Humility is essential, but being a doormat is not.

Here's the thing: hazing/bullying requires a group effort. That really doesn't exist here - especially not in this sort of thread.

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I attempted to have a conversation with Monet but quickly realized that was just another way to fuck with me so I bowed out.

Nah, it's just that there are various parts of conversing with Monet that are quite unique.

Originally Posted by LΩVE

What is most frustrating is the dismissal of the thought processes of the "layperson". How many people have the time and resources to become experts on the many different branches this topic can take? Few. The "layperson" is who normally tackles these issues on a daily basis, therefore lack of research in the area doesn't negate their observations and opinions.

There's a perception issue here in the sentence I deleted (because I'm barely going to address that) - that's because people who have advanced knowledge on a topic can come across as condescending when, in fact, they're not intending to be, and because people hate to feel inferior, abased or subjugated so they react harshly.

Here's the thing, though - when your doctor gives a diagnosis, you don't expect your opinion of illness to be taken as on par with the doctor's. When your attorney gives you legal advice, you'd assume a lay opinion would not be on equal footing or be taken with equal consideration.

So, along the same lines, when people with advanced knowledge of this subject drop some knowledge, don't think that it is meant to 'negate' your opinion, but rather to inform you of places where your opinion may be misguided, or to inform you of biases, beliefs or experiences that may color your opinion in ways you don't expect.

Nothing can "negate" an opinion. That doesn't mean all opinions are correct or well-founded, or that there is no way for knowledge to be interjected. It also doesn't mean your opinion isn't valuable - it's just not equally valuable as facts and knowledge.

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Here's the thing: hazing/bullying requires a group effort. That really doesn't exist here - especially not in this sort of thread.



Nah, it's just that there are various parts of conversing with Monet that are quite unique.



There's a perception issue here in the sentence I deleted (because I'm barely going to address that) - that's because people who have advanced knowledge on a topic can come across as condescending when, in fact, they're not intending to be, and because people hate to feel inferior, abased or subjugated so they react harshly.

Here's the thing, though - when your doctor gives a diagnosis, you don't expect your opinion of illness to be taken as on par with the doctor's. When your attorney gives you legal advice, you'd assume a lay opinion would not be on equal footing or be taken with equal consideration.

So, along the same lines, when people with advanced knowledge of this subject drop some knowledge, don't think that it is meant to 'negate' your opinion, but rather to inform you of places where your opinion may be misguided, or to inform you of biases, beliefs or experiences that may color your opinion in ways you don't expect.

Nothing can "negate" an opinion. That doesn't mean all opinions are correct or well-founded, or that there is no way for knowledge to be interjected. It also doesn't mean your opinion isn't valuable - it's just not equally valuable as facts and knowledge.

Bullying certainly exists on an individual level, I just won't participate. Not interested in being a doormat or a victim.

I didn't read it like that...interesting at first, purposefully baiting in the end, hence my deciding not to engage with that poster. There's no point in trying to have a one on one discussion when one part is being completely ignored, so I'm happy to leave that dynamic to the group. It's just not my style.

I can recognize the difference between someone who is simply knowledgeable and offering what they know and someone who is being a huge prick. Huge prick seems to be the overwhelming majority at the moment, but certainly some people are simply offering their take.

What I was writing about was the fact that there have been times when, literally, "laypeople" have been told to shut the fuck up because they had no idea what they were talking about. There is a difference between offering a viewpoint and telling someone else theirs is not valid because they are not "knowledgeable" on the topic. Most people here, especially those of an ethnic minority are extremely knowledgeable on the topic-just not on the academic level. People who have experienced racism are knowledgeable on the topic, too, even if they haven't read books on the topic. It is the attitude that they are NOT because they are not experts through research that squashes the opportunity to learn. Experience is just as valuable and sometimes more so. I can read all I want to, become an "expert" in the sense that I've researched racism and its impacts from every level but I'll never see it from the viewpoint of someone who is black or hispanic or who is a Muslim living in America. A book can't make me feel that, and of course neither can a message on a forum, but because it carries the weight of someone's personal emotions and particular experiences it can come a lot closer.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

People who have experienced racism are knowledgeable on the topic, too, even if they haven't read books on the topic.

This phrase is either overused or underused with little middle ground. A lot of people who think they have "experienced racism" actually have not. A lot of people who think that they have not "experienced racism" actually have.

Suffice it to say that having "experiences" means that someone has had experiences. It does not instantly make someone knowledgeable beyond being able to share their experience. They are experienced in the literal sense but that isn't enough to participate in every discussion of racial and ethnic relations.

[LΩVE]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This phrase is either overused or underused with little middle ground. A lot of people who think they have "experienced racism" actually have not. A lot of people who think that they have not "experienced racism" actually have.

Suffice it to say that having "experiences" means that someone has had experiences. It does not instantly make someone knowledgeable beyond being able to share their experience. They are experienced in the literal sense but that isn't enough to participate in every discussion of racial and ethnic relations.

I disagree with the logic that people who read about experiences are more valuable than people who have been in those situations. They are valuable in different ways.

If these discussions should be limited to only those who spend extensive amounts of time researching the topic, then maybe it should never ever be broached here.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by LΩVE

I disagree with the logic that people who read about experiences are more valuable than people who have been in those situations. They are valuable in different ways.

I am not talking about people who only "read about experiences." Your assumptions of what it means to have an expertise are guiding your replies.

Originally Posted by LΩVE

If these discussions should be limited to only those who spend extensive amounts of time researching the topic, then maybe it should never ever be broached here.

This is GC, anyone can participate and that's what everyone's doing. KSig RC and I are making a general point that you keep wanting to only apply to GC.

On that note, this "opinion discussion" is boring as hell. What's worse than opinions-and-assholes is people who want to type long posts about their right to express their opinion.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

There's a perception issue here in the sentence I deleted (because I'm barely going to address that) - that's because people who have advanced knowledge on a topic can come across as condescending when, in fact, they're not intending to be, and because people hate to feel inferior, abased or subjugated so they react harshly.

Here's the thing, though - when your doctor gives a diagnosis, you don't expect your opinion of illness to be taken as on par with the doctor's. When your attorney gives you legal advice, you'd assume a lay opinion would not be on equal footing or be taken with equal consideration.

So, along the same lines, when people with advanced knowledge of this subject drop some knowledge, don't think that it is meant to 'negate' your opinion, but rather to inform you of places where your opinion may be misguided, or to inform you of biases, beliefs or experiences that may color your opinion in ways you don't expect.

Nothing can "negate" an opinion. That doesn't mean all opinions are correct or well-founded, or that there is no way for knowledge to be interjected. It also doesn't mean your opinion isn't valuable - it's just not equally valuable as facts and knowledge.

Exactly.

People think that social phenomena are so subjective and socially constructed that there can't be any objectivity, concreteness, and therefore no understanding of these phenomena. That isn't the case. These concepts are about more than individual perception and opinion based on conjecture and emotions.

There are millions of people in this world and, yet, the more things change the more things stay the same. There are trends and patterns in all of this that surpass personal experiences (and opinions) that people think are so unique. Everyone wants to believe that they are different and that they are thinking/saying/experiencing something brand new.