Why was the thread asking why LadyLonghorn's thread was moved moved?

[EE-BO]

In DeltAlum's defense, this ain't his fight. This is a recruitment forum matter, and while I can appreciate that trying this thread over there would probably lead to fast deletion- the fact is it is hard for a mod to have a thread dealing with a serious concern over another forum in his own forum.

While I do think LL's post was valuable and insightful, and thus agree with some of the comments in the chit chat threads, there was a lot of commentary which was not so much about the actual words used- but the context. I have been a mod for just over a year now, and the thread here asking why LL's post got removed was reported more than any other thread I have ever seen. And it was not just one post getting reported- but several, and the people reporting weren't just mods- it included a lot of people who are regular and valuable posters here. I think most of them share the view that LL's post should not have been removed from Recruitment. It was the turn of the discussion in the chit chat thread that bothered them.

So DeltAlum did not really have much choice. And given that there has to be some kind of outlet for people to express their views on this situation, I think it was cool of him to reopen this thread and give a voice to an issue that he should not have to be dealing with in the first place.

As for LL's post- while I did like, it needed a little tweaking. It was a great smackdown for the HMs, but there will also be moms coming here to post (and tons more to just read) who are genuinely sad and upset, and just want some advice on how to counsel their daughters. Not all the moms are Helicopter Moms, and given how incredibly important sorority recruitment is- EASILY the MOST emotionally driven aspect of Greek Life- it needed a little bit of finesse in parts.

And so on that basis, it is hard to expect a Super-Mod to overrule the Recruitment Mod and just reinstate the thread- even if the little battle started by an HM were to be removed.

Super-Mods have a lot of power, but those few chosen for that role also have a tremendous respect for being careful about using it. Just look at all the fury over one thread being moved. Imagine the fury that would erupt if a Super-Mod were to override a Mod, demod or ban a Moderator. It would take a lot more than this to justify that- even given the historical context of the issue at hand with HM-related threads.

Most all of us are on the same page. And we are not going to attack other mods openly in these forums. That serves no valid purpose in the long run. This is why many of you are not seeing the outrage from us in print that you expect. We respect the role and that we are not the ones to decide who is, or is not, a mod. And I personally have a LOT of respect for just how hard it must be to moderate Recruitment fora to begin with.

I agree there is an issue here, but I think to be fair you all have to concede that there were some minor issues with the original post and how it would be received by non-HMs and also some issues with the backlash. That complicates Mods and Super-Mods taking drastic steps.

For now, I am just happy DeltAlum is letting this issue crash his forum for discussion. Rest assured we are all thinking about it too- and from both sides of the fence- and while we may not have the power to act as quick as everyone wants, and certainly won't be able to make everyone happy- we do care.

Yes this site is Entertainment. I like a good web-fight as much as anyone. But I do also care about the value of this place to Greeks. And I think I speak for all mods in saying that.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

In DeltAlum's defense, this ain't his fight. This is a recruitment forum matter, and while I can appreciate that trying this thread over there would probably lead to fast deletion- the fact is it is hard for a mod to have a thread dealing with a serious concern over another forum in his own forum.

While I do think LL's post was valuable and insightful, and thus agree with some of the comments in the chit chat threads, there was a lot of commentary which was not so much about the actual words used- but the context. I have been a mod for just over a year now, and the thread here asking why LL's post got removed was reported more than any other thread I have ever seen. And it was not just one post getting reported- but several, and the people reporting weren't just mods- it included a lot of people who are regular and valuable posters here. I think most of them share the view that LL's post should not have been removed from Recruitment. It was the turn of the discussion in the chit chat thread that bothered them.

So DeltAlum did not really have much choice. And given that there has to be some kind of outlet for people to express their views on this situation, I think it was cool of him to reopen this thread and give a voice to an issue that he should not have to be dealing with in the first place.

As for LL's post- while I did like, it needed a little tweaking. It was a great smackdown for the HMs, but there will also be moms coming here to post (and tons more to just read) who are genuinely sad and upset, and just want some advice on how to counsel their daughters. Not all the moms are Helicopter Moms, and given how incredibly important sorority recruitment is- EASILY the MOST emotionally driven aspect of Greek Life- it needed a little bit of finesse in parts.

And so on that basis, it is hard to expect a Super-Mod to overrule the Recruitment Mod and just reinstate the thread- even if the little battle started by an HM were to be removed.

Super-Mods have a lot of power, but those few chosen for that role also have a tremendous respect for being careful about using it. Just look at all the fury over one thread being moved. Imagine the fury that would erupt if a Super-Mod were to override a Mod, demod or ban a Moderator. It would take a lot more than this to justify that- even given the historical context of the issue at hand with HM-related threads.

Most all of us are on the same page. And we are not going to attack other mods openly in these forums. That serves no valid purpose in the long run. This is why many of you are not seeing the outrage from us in print that you expect. We respect the role and that we are not the ones to decide who is, or is not, a mod. And I personally have a LOT of respect for just how hard it must be to moderate Recruitment fora to begin with.

I agree there is an issue here, but I think to be fair you all have to concede that there were some minor issues with the original post and how it would be received by non-HMs and also some issues with the backlash. That complicates Mods and Super-Mods taking drastic steps.

For now, I am just happy DeltAlum is letting this issue crash his forum for discussion. Rest assured we are all thinking about it too- and from both sides of the fence- and while we may not have the power to act as quick as everyone wants, and certainly won't be able to make everyone happy- we do care.

Yes this site is Entertainment. I like a good web-fight as much as anyone. But I do also care about the value of this place to Greeks. And I think I speak for all mods in saying that.

With all due respect, I think you may be making GC out to be way more important than it really is. This isn't the NPC or IFC official site. Posts made here are not official statements by any Greek organization. Furthermore, you imply that the sensitivities of visitors to this site warrant more consideration that those of the regular posters of the site. So what if a few moms are insulted? If I go on the political threads I get insulted because I am conservative and 99.99% of GC posters are liberals. Solution: I don't go there. I don't need a moderator deciding what is offensive and what isn't. If someone was upset by the advice in LL's thread, they could have started a new thread with different advice, or added their differing opinion to that thread.

In my opinion, this site does not, or should I say should not, exist to promote a positive image of Greek life. It is merely an outlet for Greeks to interact, and as such it is valuable as a realistic portrayal of Greek life. GC's value to a visitor is that it provides such insight, for better or for worse. Visitors to the site can take it for what it is. When the site is micro-moderated, visitors are left with a sanitized forum and therefore it loses its value as a truthful portayal. It becomes a product of the views of the moderators, rather than the regular posters. Some Greeks are hateful people, so therefore some posts will be. Deleting everything hateful promotes an image that just isn't realistic.

For the most part, GC posters tend to do a pretty good job of moderating themselves. When newbies ask for tiers and such, they are immediately informed of the culture of the site by regular posters. No moderating interference is needed.

Other than spam and obscenity/vulgarity, I don't see why anything needs to be deleted.

Lady Longhorn's post, and even the ensuing drama, is just part of a whole that is GC. I don't think any of it should have been altered other than obscenity. All of it represented the opinions of the posters, and that is exactly what GC should be, in my opinion.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

I don't need a moderator deciding what is offensive and what isn't.

In my opinion, this site does not, or should I say should not, exist to promote a positive image of Greek life. It is merely an outlet for Greeks to interact, and as such it is valuable as a realistic portrayal of Greek life.

When the site is micro-moderated, visitors are left with a sanitized forum and therefore it loses its value as a truthful portayal. It becomes a product of the views of the moderators, rather than the regular posters.

Lady Longhorn's post, and even the ensuing drama, is just part of a whole that is GC. I don't think any of it should have been altered other than obscenity. All of it represented the opinions of the posters, and that is exactly what GC should be, in my opinion.

I agree 100% with your whole post, but these are my favorite passages. As everyone can see from my signature, I am not a fan of any kind of censorship. I believe that everyone should be able to express his or her own opinion on a message board, even if that opinion is that another poster is a raging asshat.

And I don't care about the cussing. Aren't we all adults? Aren't we all exposed to it every day? And if some people think they will spontaneously combust because they read four little letters on a computer screen, perhaps they need to pursue other forms of entertainment that don't involve real people in the real world. This isn't ChurchChat.

I also agree with the point that GC is "self-moderated." If someone gives idiotic advice (as was recently given), the more knowledgeable posters step in to correct the mistaken poster and guide the asker correctly. But if the idiotic posts are always removed, how will we be able to discern who is giving valuable advice and who is a moron? Leave them up for the record! Leave the corrections up for the record! Let everyone who is considering posting read what has been done in error, and they will think twice before posting the same stupid thing.

LL's thread should have stood as a beacon to all the HM's. First they should be able to read her excellent advice. Then they should read what will happen to them if they try to barge in on the membership selection practices of NPC sororities. I can hear the fwapping now (great sig TC). They are going to come here and post the exact same things that start this shit up. And they won't know any better since all the previous HM drama has been removed.

[EE-BO]

Irishpipes, I do not see where we disagree. As I said, I think LL's post could have used a little tweaking, but not much. She is a smart lady, and she hit the issue head on right.

And my concern for sensitivity only applies to sorority recruitment. There should be some smackdowns in there since a lot of people ask for it. But this was a thread addressed to all mothers on a sensitive issue at the most sensitive time of the year.

I do not have an issue with how most posters are on this site- including the long-timers who have gotten contentious in the threads surrounding this drama. They are some of the best resources GC has- and for every deserved smackdown to someone who needs one, they have been a great help for those who come here with good intentions.

My point is that there is a desire here for a Super-Mod to override a Mod. And for that to happen, it would have to be a really black-white situation- or the fallout would be even worse than what we are seeing here.

[Tippiechick]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Irishpipes, I do not see where we disagree. As I said, I think LL's post could have used a little tweaking, but not much. She is a smart lady, and she hit the issue head on right.

And my concern for sensitivity only applies to sorority recruitment. There should be some smackdowns in there since a lot of people ask for it. But this was a thread addressed to all mothers on a sensitive issue at the most sensitive time of the year.

I do not have an issue with how most posters are on this site- including the long-timers who have gotten contentious in the threads surrounding this drama. They are some of the best resources GC has- and for every deserved smackdown to someone who needs one, they have been a great help for those who come here with good intentions.

My point is that there is a desire here for a Super-Mod to override a Mod. And for that to happen, it would have to be a really black-white situation- or the fallout would be even worse than what we are seeing here.

There is NO desire for a super-mod to override a mod --that came from Deltalum... We have a desire for John to get his ass in gear and fix what needs fixing. ***cough** mods who mod for personal reasons over and over for YEARS***cough***

[epchick]

Dang that other "why" thread must have taken a turn after my "experience=children" post, because there wasn't any cursing or insulting going on before that.

What I don't understand is why any one poster is held in higher regard than others. It seems as though its ok for posters (mainly new ones) to insult people like OTW, yet its not ok for an older poster (like they signed up years ago) to "insult" (if that's what you wanna call it) someone else. That's pretty crappy moderating if you ask me.

Originally Posted by EE-BO

As for LL's post- while I did like, it needed a little tweaking. It was a great smackdown for the HMs, but there will also be moms coming here to post (and tons more to just read) who are genuinely sad and upset, and just want some advice on how to counsel their daughters. Not all the moms are Helicopter Moms, and given how incredibly important sorority recruitment is- EASILY the MOST emotionally driven aspect of Greek Life- it needed a little bit of finesse in parts.

I'll admit I didn't read LL's original thread, it was moved before I even got to see it. Yet i'm confident enough in many GCers to know that if they are upset about it, then there is something wrong.

Mom's who are upset & sad are welcome to post, I don't think there is anyone here who is denying that. Yet, how many moms have come here peacefully. Pretty much none of them, they resort to all sorts of insults. Look @ what happened last night in Jill's thread. Calling members "nasty witches," hoping her daughter doesn't join our sorority, etc. That's what we go through practically everytime.

There are always going to be disagreements, but deleting/moving the topic does not help matters. Certain moderators don't seem to care about that. They care more about the new members' feelings & opinions, than they ever are about the older members. How is that right?

[irishpipes]

epchick, furthering your post, why do moderator's care about ANYONE'S feelings? Moderating is a task, not a skill. I don't understand why moderators review content other than for basic obscenity or spam. Otherwise, there would have to be some training or auditing qualifications for moderators.

I didn't even agree with LL's post entirely. I just believe in a free exchange of ideas.

To be honest, I generally dislike probably half or more of all posts on GC - by that I mean a lot of posters tend to be unnecessarily aggressive, intolerant, even hostile, and I'm not really like that. That being said, so what? A lot of people ARE aggressive, intolerant, and hostile. So I wouldn't have them over for dinner. It doesn't mean their opinions/posts should be disallowed as part of an open discussion.

[epchick]

Originally Posted by irishpipes

epchick, furthering your post, why do moderator's care about ANYONE'S feelings? Moderating is a task, not a skill. I don't understand why moderators review content other than for basic obscenity or spam. Otherwise, there would have to be some training or auditing qualifications for moderators.

I didn't even agree with LL's post entirely. I just believe in a free exchange of ideas.

To be honest, I generally dislike probably half or more of all posts on GC - by that I mean a lot of posters tend to be unnecessarily aggressive, intolerant, even hostile, and I'm not really like that. That being said, so what? A lot of people ARE aggressive, intolerant, and hostile. So I wouldn't have them over for dinner. It doesn't mean their opinions/posts should be disallowed as part of an open discussion.

Exactly. Like you said, moderating should be there for the more vulgar exchanges, as well as to stop any more personal attacks (i.e. BA & Earp stalkerish behaviors). They should not be there to decide who's opinion is more valid than another. That goes for moderator's opinions as well. I don't think that a moderator's opinion should supercede my opinion just because they are a moderator.

[irishpipes]

Originally Posted by EE-BO

Irishpipes, I do not see where we disagree. As I said, I think LL's post could have used a little tweaking, but not much. She is a smart lady, and she hit the issue head on right.

And my concern for sensitivity only applies to sorority recruitment. There should be some smackdowns in there since a lot of people ask for it. But this was a thread addressed to all mothers on a sensitive issue at the most sensitive time of the year.

I do not have an issue with how most posters are on this site- including the long-timers who have gotten contentious in the threads surrounding this drama. They are some of the best resources GC has- and for every deserved smackdown to someone who needs one, they have been a great help for those who come here with good intentions.

My point is that there is a desire here for a Super-Mod to override a Mod. And for that to happen, it would have to be a really black-white situation- or the fallout would be even worse than what we are seeing here.

We disagree because I would view LL's post as her opinion, and only her opinion. As such, it needs no tweaking. Comments (tweaks?) about her opinion come in the form of posts to her thread from other users. I don't think mods should edit or delete someone's opinion to make it their own. You leave it as is, then add your own 2 cents in your own post. That way a reader can see different sides and make their own decision.

[EE-BO]

Irishpipes, I can admit when I am wrong- and you make sense and I think you are right. Mods could add their own take and then, yes, you have an ideal thread.

[nittanyalum]

Wait, EARP had the pull to get someone demodded, but the shenanigans in the recruitment forum have apparently gone unchecked for years???

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Wait, EARP had the pull to get someone demodded . . . .

I take it that was before Earp got demodded.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I take it that was before Earp got demodded.

Earp and GP got demodded at the same time.

[cuteASAbug]

Tom, this thread has nothing to do with the AI forum needing moderator.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by cuteASAbug

Tom, this thread has nothing to do with the AI forum needing moderator.

Excuse Me!

It was a question asked and it was answered!

Whether on this thread or another!

So, I am sure that if The Super Mods wish to delete, or lock it they can.

Some want the truth and some do not want to know what a went on!

So you wish to deny them that information?

You say No, but what the heck?

Just amazing isn't it?

Do you think John H cares anymore?

If I were him, and It is operating as he set it up then he is smart enough enough to stay away from G C!

But, now you want to tell me that is is operating as it was originally set up?

I don't really know with my # of posts that I get crap for or how long I have been here and promoted G C!

First off, there is nothing wrong with the site, it just comes down to some on it!

Now, I am sorry if you wish to get in a pissing contest then, you better think again!

BTW have a nice evening .