NPHC grade requirements?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by alum

Completely anecdotal but I always found the kids who went to independent prep schools and selective parochial schools were almost always excellent writers. I don't know if that was because the student-teacher ration was much smaller and the prep teachers really focus on students writing well vs just trying to prep the class for the state NCLB, the SAT, or the AP exams. My daughter went to a decent public high school and always took AP and Honors for every subject possible. However she usually had 25-30 classmates, even in AP. When she went to the Page School as a junior, her smallest class had 6 students, her largest had 16. Despite the condensed schedule of the Page School (they had shortened classes when Congress was in session), the teachers were much more demanding and seemed to expect more. Her writing vastly improved.

I think it's really hard to teach writing if the teacher is carrying a large total student load simply because of the time it takes to assess each piece.

If you only have a few kids, you can assign more, grade more, and the students get more opportunities to improve the skill.

ETA: I also think that if every kid in the class is a pretty good writer, so you don't have to devote time to instruction about errors, you can work on writing that is actually good as opposed to writing that's just free from horrible errors or passages of gibberish. What do you think, SWTXBelle?

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by alum

Completely anecdotal but I always found the kids who went to independent prep schools and selective parochial schools were almost always excellent writers. I don't know if that was because the student-teacher ration was much smaller and the prep teachers really focus on students writing well vs just trying to prep the class for the state NCLB, the SAT, or the AP exams. My daughter went to a decent public high school and always took AP and Honors for every subject possible. However she usually had 25-30 classmates, even in AP. When she went to the Page School as a junior, her smallest class had 6 students, her largest had 16. Despite the condensed schedule of the Page School (they had shortened classes when Congress was in session), the teachers were much more demanding and seemed to expect more. Her writing vastly improved.

I don't know about class size or student to teacher ratios, but I do think that I have an answer regarding better writers.

I went to Catholic school from K-12. My high school was a College Prep school. You needed to pass a test to get in. Anyway, we had 4 levels - "college prep", Honors 1 and Honors 2, and AP (seniors only). I was in Honors 1 and 2 classes. In terms of students' writing skills - the honors students were required to do much more writing than the "college prep" kids. We even took a special Study Skills class the first quarter (which helped immensely, and I think that everyone should have benefitted from it).

Anyway, in our English class alone, we had to read and write a paper on one required book a week. We also had mini-term papers every three weeks, a half-term paper, and and a full-term paper. All our tests were written tests, and sometimes we wrote for entire class periods. We also had to write papers every quarter in our science, history, religion, etc., classes.

It was really just practicing. You do it enough, a lot of things become habit (esp. spelling and grammar). Parents can encourage kids to do this at home if the schools aren't requiring it.

[fantASTic]

Thanks for all the responses, they were very informative.

DSTChaos: sorry if I phrased the question poorly. I was simply trying to explain why I was wondering, and thank you for being civil and instructive.

[alum]

Many schools have writing centers for their undergraduates including all of the highly selective Ivies:
http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Writing_Center/
http://www.college.columbia.edu/core/classes/writing.php
http://lsc.sas.cornell.edu/
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~writing/se..._student.shtml
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~wricntr/
http://writing.upenn.edu/critical/help/
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/writi...er/WCAbout.htm
http://www.yale.edu/bass/AbouttheWritingCenter.html


I would expect to see a writing center at an engineering school but an Ivy?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by alum

Many schools have writing centers for their undergraduates including all of the highly selective Ivies:
http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Writing_Center/
http://www.college.columbia.edu/core/classes/writing.php
http://lsc.sas.cornell.edu/
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~writing/se..._student.shtml
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~wricntr/
http://writing.upenn.edu/critical/help/
http://web.princeton.edu/sites/writi...er/WCAbout.htm
http://www.yale.edu/bass/AbouttheWritingCenter.html


I would expect to see a writing center at an engineering school but an Ivy?

But I don't think Writing Center necessarily equals a remedial program, does it?

I think Writing Centers just got to be really trendy and they are probably a way of keeping professors from having to read undergraduate drafts but making sure someone is available to read them.

ETA: if you look at the topics for programs offered at the first link, they don't really look remedial. The Cornell link doesn't even seem to offer writing help. It may just be the way I think of remedial programs. The schools I was thinking of require students to take non-credit but tuition classes before they are eligible to take the first credit course in the sequence.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But I don't think Writing Center necessarily equals a remedial program, does it?

Nope.

Writing centers are just resources for students (undergrad and sometimes grad--eventhough undergrads use them the most). Most undergrads at most colleges and universities need help with their writing. And even students who write well need help organizing and writing papers.

Most people, in general, need help with their writing--including many graduate students and many faculty and professionals--reviewers for journals have a field day over some submissions.

None of my universities have remedial English. There are intro English classes, the writing centers, and the disabilities services centers.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by alum

Many schools have writing centers for their undergraduates including all of the highly selective Ivies.


I would expect to see a writing center at an engineering school but an Ivy?

I went to two of the writing centers you linked to so the counselors could look at my honors and masters' theses. Basically, I was so sick of reading them by the time they were due that I wanted another set of eyes on them. Also, I wanted to make sure I had Chicago Style down, since most of my papers in college were MLA; both theses had to be Chicago Style. It worked out really well, since both have been published since I graduated and it cut down on the amount of editing I had to do in order to send them to the journals.

A writing center is not the same thing as a remedial class.

[tld221]

whether its Harvard or Sally Sue School of Suckarse Writers, every school's students have its share of student that cant write for crap. or better yet, can write, but could use the help here and there. Or, are great at creative writing but couldnt do a research paper for their lives.

Its freaking undergrad, not a PHD program. And a college SHOULD supplement student writing skills versus having full on classes. Theres a difference between, "i can write a paper but would like a second set of eyes to check it out" and "i write like i speak on AIM, and rarely use commas, periods and quote marks."

I cant imagine an 18 year old's writing would be perfection upon entering college. They simply havent had the exposure to the style and the works that reflect the style. Even if you HAVE gone to the best schools growing up.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by tld221

whether its Harvard or Sally Sue School of Suckarse Writers, every school's students have its share of student that cant write for crap. or better yet, can write, but could use the help here and there. Or, are great at creative writing but couldnt do a research paper for their lives.

Its freaking undergrad, not a PHD program. And a college SHOULD supplement student writing skills versus having full on classes. Theres a difference between, "i can write a paper but would like a second set of eyes to check it out" and "i write like i speak on AIM, and rarely use commas, periods and quote marks."

I cant imagine an 18 year old's writing would be perfection upon entering college. They simply havent had the exposure to the style and the works that reflect the style. Even if you HAVE gone to the best schools growing up.

Yeah, but there's currently a big gap between the lack of perfection I think you have in mind and the level that a lot of kids are at at the end of high school.

But I think it shows up in kids' verbal SAT scores too, not to mention the "writing" section which is one third essay and two thirds questions about writing. And I think the colleges just choose to ignore how bad off the kids may be when they admit them.

[tld221]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Yeah, but there's currently a big gap between the lack of perfection I think you have in mind and the level that a lot of kids are at at the end of high school.

fair enough - even the student who needs the most help at an Ivy/highly selective school would be doing better with their writing than the best student at a less selective/community college.

i know these classes we are speaking of. my brother attends a community college that has these remedial classes, that are supposed to cover all those things he shouldve learned in HS.

it would be unfair for him to be in a regular four-year institution and fail an intro writing class knowing from the beginning that he couldnt do it. maybe this is the thinking of colleges that offer these remedial/non-credit courses serving to play catch-up.

and schools also offer remedial math courses to catch students up on HS math (hell, even middle school math, like percentages, basic trig and geometry). to pass calculus, you need to know this stuff cold and i bet even average students could benefit from this.

i think this shows that colleges are aware of that gap.

[SWTXBelle]

The private school at which I taught had a very comprehensive English program. The junior year incorporated a great deal of what I taught in college English 1301, and the senior year incorporated what I taught in 1302 (I even used college texts). Most of them went on to be exempted from freshmen English classes by virtue of the AP or their verbal score - and this is at schools ranging from U of Chicago, Yale, Penn, Stanford, you get the picture. Many of them got extra money helping students in their dorms with their papers!
But we had the luxury of designing our own curriculum - here in Texas you have to use "approved" texts for public schools, and the selection process can be very political. Even the most brilliant of public school teachers will have their hands tied by various curriculm and administrative requirements. That doesn't mean that there isn't quality instruction going on - it just means it can be difficult to jump through the hoops.
Another factor, I feel, is that when I graduated with a B.A. in English I had TWICE as many English credits as someone who graduated with an Education degree with an English emphasis.
There are a multitude of reasons why many public school students do not graduate with what I would consider acceptable reading and writing skills. One of my former students reported back from Baylor that when asked what their favorite novel they had read in high school was, all of the Houston ISD students reported that they had not read any - just short stories. Teachers with crushing class loads are simply not going to be able to require the kind of work most students need to hone their skills.
I do think the situation may be getting better - I have three 1302 courses to teach in the fall, so I'll let you know. The essay portions of the ACT and SAT should, at the very least, let colleges know which students are weaker.
If I had my druthers, I'd require students who were weak in English skills to take remedial classes at their local community/junior classes the summer before their freshman year.

eta - My alma mater has a Writing Center to help with "Writing across the Curriculum" - a program that incorporates writing in ALL academic disciplines. The idea is that any graduate of Texas State will be a competent writer.

[alum]

I agree that writing centers and remedial classes are two different entities. It just surprises me that the schools to which I linked would even need writing centers.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by alum

I agree that writing centers and remedial classes are two different entities. It just surprises me that the schools to which I linked would even need writing centers.

And I described a situation where a writing center would be needed, or at the very least, helpful. I don't see what's so surprising about that.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by alum

I agree that writing centers and remedial classes are two different entities. It just surprises me that the schools to which I linked would even need writing centers.

It doesn't surprise me. That's like acting surprised that every college and university has a Discriplinary Action Committee. Writing centers are standard for colleges and universities regardless of prestige ranking, entry requirements, and GPA of the student population. There's a need.