Protests In Wisconsin

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

1. Anecdotal evidence =/= statistical evidence or generalizable data.
2. I know what ~ means and I gave you the 10%, 25%, and 90% markers for the data that I cited.
3. If your daughter has been working for four years, and wages have been frozen for four years, why are you surprised that your daughter is still making an entry-level salary?
4. Is your daughter not in the teacher's union?
5. Why are you doing your daughter's taxes for her? Are you an accountant?
6. Aren't we constantly saying not to make generalizations based on anecdotal data?
7. $54,000 =/= "about $60,000. It doesn't even round to "about $60,000.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by agzg

I think it's both, but more the keeping collective bargaining at this point. Reports are that the Governor never even went to the unions for concessions in the first place (which is what some state governors are doing in order to fix their budget crises).

Right, you have to at least start there. It shows good faith.

This isn't about budget cuts, this is about removing the benefits of being in a union in the first place. And it is obviously not a principled stance, as otherwise police, firefighter, and trooper's unions wouldn't have been exempted. It can't purely be cost saving either or the above mentioned unions would ALSO have been cut. So now there's a political compononent. Can't be that they don't want to tick off the police union, can it? Like, maybe he feels like more police officers vote for him than state employees?

Again, the guy threatened to call the National Guard. Seriouslly.

As for the Dems who went to Rockford, they've stated that they want serious discussion or debate on the issue and haven't been given anything in the way of concessions or any sign that the Republicans are "working for the constituents who didn't vote for them too."

Seriously, both sides are being childish, but I'm kind of past the "you should be the better person" point on legislative maturity. Maybe we can bust the two party system in the process.

[KSUViolet06]

I knew what this was going to be about before I clicked the thread.

Yes, things are getting crazy re: the same type of bill here in Ohio.

My teacher friends are not happy campers at all.

[sceniczip]

^^^Teachers at my school aren't concerned. I'm not either at this point. I'm hoping to get a job at a Catholic school, which you don't have the same retirement system. Even if I'm at a public school though I'm still going to set up my own retirement fund in addition to STRS. It's what we've been advised to do and I think it's a pretty good idea. Mom told me starting with my first paycheck I should start putting money away even if it's only $20.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by sceniczip

^^^Teachers at my school aren't concerned. I'm not either at this point. I'm hoping to get a job at a Catholic school, which you don't have the same retirement system. Even if I'm at a public school though I'm still going to set up my own retirement fund in addition to STRS. It's what we've been advised to do and I think it's a pretty good idea. Mom told me starting with my first paycheck I should start putting money away even if it's only $20.

I don't think everyone has been advised to do that, hence, the freaking out.

It's smart, though.

[sceniczip]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I don't think everyone has been advised to do that, hence, the freaking out.

It's smart, though.

You're right, I don't think they have. They are starting to tell us new teachers that though because they mentioned it at our one student teaching meeting. I think it's also hard because how many 22 year olds are thinking about their retirement? Unless they have someone to guide them through the whole process. One meeting during student teaching though probably doesn't get the point across!

[Drolefille]

Saw this and thought it was cool:
Firefighters (who are exempt from this bill) marched on the rotunda with bagpipes in a show of support for the unions affected.
Vid 1
Vid 2

[ThetaDancer]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

Wasn't there an article about how someone proposed to keep the cut in benefits but allow for collective barganing and union dues to remain, and he shot them down, saying it wouldn't save the crisis?

I wish I could find that article: it really speaks to what is going on with this bill.

Ahh I think I know the one you're talking about but I can't find it.

There's an article in the Times today that talks about this

Governor Walker, in an interview, said he hoped that by “pushing the envelope” and setting an aggressive example, Wisconsin might inspire more states to curb the power of unions. “In that regard, I hope I’m inspiration just as much as others are an inspiration to me,” he said.

And yesterday union officials said they would agree to all of Walker's financial proposals as long as they could keep their rights, but he said no.

[als463]

Originally Posted by agzg

This is wrong. The mean annual wage in Wisconsin for an Elementary School teacher is $51,240/year. (Bureau of Labor Statistics) For middle school it's $50,950, and for high school it's $54,720. Typical implies average, and mean and median refer to average, but the "typical" teacher is, in fact, not making "about $60,000."

In Milwaukee, specifically, according to Salary.com, the median wages for an elementary school teacher is $52,401/year. For high school it's $54,639. According to the BLS the mean for elementary is $56,370, for middle school is $52,610, and for high school is $54,620.

Also, these numbers are the MEANS and MEDIANS, meaning, there are people above and below these numbers because they don't account for experience, number of years teaching, educational background, etc. There sure are teachers making $60,000 a year - but they've been in that district for a while. While we're at it, the 10% and 25% marks run from $32,962 to $43,292, which is quite a bit less than $60,000. 90% tops out at $72,865, which is $12,000 more than $60,000.

ETA because I was curious: According to Salary.com the area with the most parity to Milwaukee in terms of cost of living in NC is the Charlotte area, which is 4.4% lower than Milwaukee. The median salary for an elementary school teacher in that area is $50,974, and for high school is $53,151.

If an elementary teacher making the median from Milwaukee (making $52,401 per year) were to move to Charlotte, NC, to make the median there ($50,974), according to the cost of living calculator on salary.com they would have a $22/year negative net change in disposable income.

Wow, I didn't realize teachers made that much. I hold an M.Ed. and I'm working on my MSW yet, the "well-paying" SW jobs are for the government at the VA and that's around the same amount as the teachers in Wisconsin. Knowing that, I have a hard time feeling bad for teachers who make 50k a year-even if they are living in Milwaukee or Charlotte. I hope everything gets worked out, though.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I am sitting here doing my taxes for my daughter who is in her 4th year teaching High School and she made ~34K salary. So I know what I am talking about. Her salary has been frozen for all 4 years due to the NC budget crunch (with Dems in charge). She lives in the Charlotte area of which you compared means (usual average) and median (mid point of population). The little ~ means approximately. So if Milwaukee teachers in High School make 54K+ than I consider that the ~ neighborhood. The ~ 60K I gave as typical is probably within 3 standard deviations of the mean but I have not crunched the data. I will not use the term typical for semantics purposes again, but you get my point. They are certainly not poor as most would define poor.

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

[sceniczip]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

I've always loved this and send it to everybody who whines about how much teachers are paid I also really like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxsOVK4syxU

[als463]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

Personally, as a teacher, I think we are overpaid.

Basically, most people view us as babysitters. Most babysitters get paid $5 an hour. I have your kids for 8 hours a day. I will deduct their lunch time and my planning period and knock it down to 6 1/2 hours.

6.5 times 5 = 32.50 a day for 1 student. The average number of students is 25.

25 times 32.50 = $812.20. The state of Texas requires students to be in class 185 days.

185 times 812.50 = $150,312.50.

Go ahead, pay me $5 an hour per student instead of the average teacher salary of $50,000 with no overtime for all we do after school (grading papers, planning, taking classes on our own, sponsoring clubs, tutoring, chaperoning). I don't mind.

LaneSig, when you put it that way-it makes a lot of sense. You raise a good point. I'd also like to add that I think many Social Workers should get paid more than they get, as well. I don't want to lump myself into that category because I do actually get paid very well for the particular field I'm in. I have seen, however, many hardworking Social Workers and Teachers that don't get nearly what they are worth.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by als463

LaneSig, when you put it that way-it makes a lot of sense. You raise a good point. I'd also like to add that I think many Social Workers should get paid more than they get, as well. I don't want to lump myself into that category because I do actually get paid very well for the particular field I'm in. I have seen, however, many hardworking Social Workers and Teachers that don't get nearly what they are worth.

In my neck of the woods, an ACSW is going to make a whole lot more than any teacher in my neck of the woods.

However, I have always noted... our society's "value" on a job has nothing to do with the impact that people doing that job have on society as a whole. It only has to do with who brings money into the economy. When I'm King of the World, that will change. However, day care workers and nursing aides in nursing homes are two of the lowest paid groups of people out there. They ensure the well being of our kids and our parents.

How's that for family values?

[als463]

Originally Posted by AGDee

In my neck of the woods, an ACSW is going to make a whole lot more than any teacher in my neck of the woods.

However, I have always noted... our society's "value" on a job has nothing to do with the impact that people doing that job have on society as a whole. It only has to do with who brings money into the economy. When I'm King of the World, that will change. However, day care workers and nursing aides in nursing homes are two of the lowest paid groups of people out there. They ensure the well being of our kids and our parents.

How's that for family values?

Sad, isn't it? They keep trying to push a lot of us into taking on a geriatrics role but, I could never do that. I could, if I had to but, I wouldn't love my job. I always tell people that, I don't need to make a lot of money-I just want to make a difference. I have made a difference in the lives of various people and that's worth more than money, to me.

AGDee, where do you live? I'm coming there to work. I figure that if I'm so far in college debt (to the point of sacrificing my future first born), I may as well get into a field that I love. I am looking at furthering my education beyond this point but, who knows-maybe I'll just keep doing what I'm doing.

I really do hope that things get squared away in Wisconsin, though. Everybody suffers.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

What I am saying is that they are elected to serve all their constituents not just the majority that elected them.

This is basically the most meaningless statement possible. Besides that, it's simply not true.

They are elected to do what they feel is right - elected officials are only beholden to the public to the extent that they need to reelected. There's a reason why we don't just do a direct poll of each county and have officials vote that way. Saying "they have a responsibility to the minority" is pandering of the highest order, beyond being disingenuous.