Latinamerican joining Fraternities

[knight_shadow]

Right.

Let's not address these topics as they come up, lest we become Angry Black Posters. Never mind that our experiences were reduced to being less than the "real" experiences.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Perhaps your chapter would consist of non-Americans as far as the OP is concerned. He may prefer being the token in a chapter. It seems that he wants to be accepted but doesn't want "too many others" accepted as to reduce the American fraternity experience for him. Quite a conundrum.

LOL. You know there are blonde haired, blue eyed, lily white people from Latin America and I'm assuming that the OP is one of them.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

LOL. You know there are blonde haired, blue eyed, lily white people from Latin America and I'm assuming that the OP is one of them.

I thought that and didn't want to speculate, but I agree with that possibility. The OP may be part of the white diaspora. When he gets to that all American chapter, his tokenism could therefore be ethnicity, culture, and country of origin. He could eventually assimilate and mesh quite well.

[DTD Alum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

So, now you are reducing our replies to the demand for "PC terms?"

Perhaps your chapter would consist of non-Americans as far as the OP is concerned. He may prefer being the token in a chapter. It seems that he wants to be accepted but doesn't want "too many others" accepted as to reduce the American fraternity experience for him. Quite a conundrum.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

So I got an unusual, international college experience? Wow. That Texas university sure fooled me.

As stated earlier, he wants to join a fraternity with white membership (since we're not beating around the bush).

To both posts, I don't think this is remotely what he meant. I think he chose his words poorly, but to me it seems like he is looking for a particular experience, not a particular ethnic group. He wants to join a fraternity that offers the stereotypical American experience: the big parties with elaborate props and bands, the sorority exchanges, living in a house, the intramurals, etc. I think the number of chapters outside the IFC/Panhellenic umbrella groups that can offer this experience are extremely limited (if they even exist), and frankly many schools can't offer this experience even with their IFC/Panhellenic GLOs.

Yes, I understand that due to America's de facto segregation that the majority of the participants in chapters like these are Caucasian, or at least identify with Caucasian cultures more than they do their own. I don't think racial ideals are the driving force behind his desire though, I think that he wants to experience the broadest level of American "culture" (think baseball, Dylan, apple pie, whatever) during his time here. America is a land with a huge diversity in culture, and many of them are extremely marginalized, but I don't think it's inappropriate to want to experience the mainstream culture when studying abroad. And once again, yes I understand that this stereotypical experience is primarily driven by the power majority which is Caucasian, in the same way that the British tea/football/rugby/pub culture reflects the Caucasian population rather than the scores of Indian immigrants. That still doesn't make me think it's inappropriate to purposefully seek out when studying abroad.

[knight_shadow]

Neither of the replies that you quoted were directed at the OP. In fact, before those replies were made, we told the OP that he may have been confused with the language he used.

That said, if "your chapter consists of non-Americans" is the criteria he's looking at, what do bands and sorority exchanges have to do with anything? It's obvious that he's looking for a specific type of experience (his choice has absolutely no bearing on me, so I don't care where he ends up), but to say "he doesn't want to be in an ethnic GLO" in the same breath as "the traditional experience has nothing to do with race" is silly.

[DTD Alum]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

It's obvious that he's looking for a specific type of experience (his choice has absolutely no bearing on me, so I don't care where he ends up), but to say "he doesn't want to be in an ethnic GLO" in the same breath as "the traditional experience has nothing to do with race" is silly.

I could not disagree more. There are some people who pursue a particular GLO no matter what umbrella organization purely because of race, that's obvious. However, if you want a specific type of experience often times only one type of group can provide it. If he wants to live in a large house and throw big parties with enormous sets and hang out with sorority girls all days (the way he has likely seen it in the movies and TV), then of course he doesn't want to be in an ethnic GLO because they don't provide that experience. I can't think of one that does, and even if there are some they are obviously extremely rare. For example, despite Greek letters and some similarities, an NPHC GLO is going to vastly differ from an IFC fraternity (yes I know there is some overlap with some fraternities) the most deeply rooted organizational structural/cultural aspects (the increased focus on community service, the heightened sense of membership lasting your entire life, membership intake vs. rush) to the most superficial (step shows, probates, line numbers and jackets). That is enough to eliminate that type of GLO from some people's minds even before race becomes a part of it.

To say that just because of the correlation between race and GLOs (which I understand the historical and social reasons for completely) that somebody who is looking at just one type of GLO is doing it for racial reasons is very assumptive and not exactly fair.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

I could not disagree more. There are some people who pursue a particular GLO no matter what umbrella organization purely because of race, that's obvious. However, if you want a specific type of experience often times only one type of group can provide it. If he wants to live in a large house and throw big parties with enormous sets and hang out with sorority girls all days (the way he has likely seen it in the movies and TV), then of course he doesn't want to be in an ethnic GLO because they don't provide that experience. I can't think of one that does, and even if there are some they are obviously extremely rare. For example, despite Greek letters and some similarities, an NPHC GLO is going to vastly differ from an IFC fraternity (yes I know there is some overlap with some fraternities) the most deeply rooted organizational structural/cultural aspects (the increased focus on community service, the heightened sense of membership lasting your entire life, membership intake vs. rush) to the most superficial (step shows, probates, line numbers and jackets). That is enough to eliminate that type of GLO from some people's minds even before race becomes a part of it.

To say that just because of the correlation between race and GLOs (which I understand the historical and social reasons for completely) that somebody who is looking at just one type of GLO is doing it for racial reasons is very assumptive and not exactly fair.

Tell me how "your chapter is full of non-Americans" translates to "I want a fraternity with huge parties, sorority mixers, and a big house." The OP has a strong enough grasp of the English language to say "I want an experience like I saw in the movies." That's not what he said.

Either way, the posts you referenced in your previous reply were 1) correcting folks that thought that discussing this topic = OMG YOU'RE RACIST FOR NOT CONSIDERING US AND WE ARE OUTRAGED and 2) cutting through the bullshit PC nonsense.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

I could not disagree more. There are some people who pursue a particular GLO no matter what umbrella organization purely because of race, that's obvious. However, if you want a specific type of experience often times only one type of group can provide it. If he wants to live in a large house and throw big parties with enormous sets and hang out with sorority girls all days (the way he has likely seen it in the movies and TV), then of course he doesn't want to be in an ethnic GLO because they don't provide that experience. I can't think of one that does, and even if there are some they are obviously extremely rare. For example, despite Greek letters and some similarities, an NPHC GLO is going to vastly differ from an IFC fraternity (yes I know there is some overlap with some fraternities) the most deeply rooted organizational structural/cultural aspects (the increased focus on community service, the heightened sense of membership lasting your entire life, membership intake vs. rush) to the most superficial (step shows, probates, line numbers and jackets). That is enough to eliminate that type of GLO from some people's minds even before race becomes a part of it.

To say that just because of the correlation between race and GLOs (which I understand the historical and social reasons for completely) that somebody who is looking at just one type of GLO is doing it for racial reasons is very assumptive and not exactly fair.

Dude, may be ignorant and not up to date on American ethnic history, that's fine. But he emphasized that he himself was white in the OP, and didn't want to join a "latino only" frat or a "foreigner frat" but a "stereotypical" frat. To pretend that race isn't at least something of an issue here is silly, particularly since he equated "African American" with "Non-American" considering AA is pretty exclusive to the US. He didn't want a group with "non-americans." Yeah we know what he's looking for, it's obvious.

No one's said that it was inappropriate for him to look for that type of fraternity. None. He was rather gently mocked for his missteps, and informed that we couldn't tell him jack shit about what some random GLO on some random campus would think of him.

Where precisely did he need defending? Or was it stated that it was inappropriate? And it's not that DrPhil or K_S need my help here, by any means, but where did you think it made sense to try and explain racial issues to them?

Also, the idea that for the majority of people, they look at the increased focus on service, or the stepping in NPHC orgs "before race becomes an issue" is laughable at best.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

We're aware of that, there's a reason why we're trying to correct his misconceptions rather than 'easing up.'

Before you try to "correct" the misconceptions, you should probably figure out whether or not they are misconceptions.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Before you try to "correct" the misconceptions, you should probably figure out whether or not they are misconceptions.

So joining a non-IFC/NPC organization is 'taboo' and does not allow an individual to get a real college experience?

Oh.

/fullcircle

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Before you try to "correct" the misconceptions, you should probably figure out whether or not they are misconceptions.

Yeah that ethnic minorities are non-Americans. Shoo perp, don't bother us.

[DTD Alum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Also, the idea that for the majority of people, they look at the increased focus on service, or the stepping in NPHC orgs "before race becomes an issue" is laughable at best.

Not remotely what I said. I said that somebody who is saying "I don't want to join a multi-cultural/NPHC/service etc. GLO" doesn't necessarily mean they do not want to associate with that race. They may just want an experience that those GLOs can't offer.

Obviously somebody joining a GLO with a specific racial focus values that racial identity. But I often see people saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are implicitly saying you want to associate yourself with white people since they are historically white. I disagree with this, since if you want to join a GLO with the stereotypical experience your only options likely are predominately white.

We had a couple members who strongly identified with their cultural/ethnic backgrounds first and foremost who still joined our fraternity because it offered something that GLOs targeted to their specific ethnicity/culture could not. For example, one member used our fraternity as his social outlet, and then used other organizations for his cultural outlet (both a cultural dance team and an assembly of students with similar backgrounds). Of course there are members who want to join an IFC fraternity so they can assimilate with "white" culture and leave their culture behind out of shame. But I'm just saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are not automatically assimilating and rejecting your own cultural heritage. You may just be using different organizations for that purpose and want to experience a more stereotypical Greek experience.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Yeah that ethnic minorities are non-Americans. Shoo perp, don't bother us.

I don't know I said anything as such.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

Not remotely what I said. I said that somebody who is saying "I don't want to join a multi-cultural/NPHC/service etc. GLO" doesn't necessarily mean they do not want to associate with that race. They may just want an experience that those GLOs can't offer.

Obviously somebody joining a GLO with a specific racial focus values that racial identity. But I often see people saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are implicitly saying you want to associate yourself with white people since they are historically white. I disagree with this, since if you want to join a GLO with the stereotypical experience your only options likely are predominately white.

We had a couple members who strongly identified with their cultural/ethnic backgrounds first and foremost who still joined our fraternity because it offered something that GLOs targeted to their specific ethnicity/culture could not. For example, one member used our fraternity as his social outlet, and then used other organizations for his cultural outlet (both a cultural dance team and an assembly of students with similar backgrounds). Of course there are members who want to join an IFC fraternity so they can assimilate with "white" culture and leave their culture behind out of shame. But I'm just saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are not automatically assimilating and rejecting your own cultural heritage. You may just be using different organizations for that purpose and want to experience a more stereotypical Greek experience.

This is all well and good, but the OP specifically brought up race as an exclusionary factor.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DTD Alum

Not remotely what I said. I said that somebody who is saying "I don't want to join a multi-cultural/NPHC/service etc. GLO" doesn't necessarily mean they do not want to associate with that race. They may just want an experience that those GLOs can't offer.

Obviously somebody joining a GLO with a specific racial focus values that racial identity. But I often see people saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are implicitly saying you want to associate yourself with white people since they are historically white. I disagree with this, since if you want to join a GLO with the stereotypical experience your only options likely are predominately white.

We had a couple members who strongly identified with their cultural/ethnic backgrounds first and foremost who still joined our fraternity because it offered something that GLOs targeted to their specific ethnicity/culture could not. For example, one member used our fraternity as his social outlet, and then used other organizations for his cultural outlet (both a cultural dance team and an assembly of students with similar backgrounds). Of course there are members who want to join an IFC fraternity so they can assimilate with "white" culture and leave their culture behind out of shame. But I'm just saying that by joining an IFC/Panhellenic GLO you are not automatically assimilating and rejecting your own cultural heritage. You may just be using different organizations for that purpose and want to experience a more stereotypical Greek experience.

Uh look, you can't divorce race out of the scenario. It doesn't mean that an individual has chosen to stop associating with X race but neither can you deny that race is a factor. No one here has said that the OP is rejecting his cultural heritage. But pretending that the majority aka "stereotypical" as you keep putting it, culture isn't white is silly. Minorities who join NPC orgs choose a culturally white experience AND they're not rejecting their heritage. It's not an either/or thing.

Also stop presuming "traditional" or even "stereotypical" = "white GLOs" here. I know it's a euphemism and it's probably the extent that someone like the OP understands the situation but you and I know better. Nothing is "untraditional" or "nonAmerican" about minority focused GLOs. And there are stereotypes about all types.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I don't know I said anything as such.

Dear lord, at least put effort into it.