Teacher Accused of Statutory Rape and Other Offenses - Page 2

DrPhil · #16 11-12-2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victoriana

I was referring to the part of the article that said "Clifton is accused of providing alcohol to and contributing to the delinquency of a minor." I could see a situation where the minors asked the woman for alcohol, so she got it for them. In that sort of situation, the minor IS partially responsible because they asked for it. I suppose that is what popped into my mind first.

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by victoriana

Dr. Phil, I DEFINITELY agree that anyone who is sexually abused, especially minors, are victims in a situation like that. As a victim of sexual abuse personally, I would never say that these kids aren't victims. What happened to them is horrible. I think it could have been prevented had the parents in the town been paying more attention to their kids. Of course now that it has happened, the parents blame them for it. There is nothing I hate more than blaming the victim in a sexual abuse situation.

Blaming a minor victim in a sexual abuse case is correlated with blaming a minor for requesting alcohol (or drugs or anything else) from an adult. This is especially the case when talking about male minors as victims. It is not uncommon for people to accuse boys of requesting alcohol, drugs, and sex as though the fact that they are boys is overriden by their supposed "request."

You would probably be less inclined to say this about girls being given alcohol because you would be more inclined to acknowledge alcohol as a facilitating factor for the sexual abuse of girls.

DrPhil · #17 11-12-2011, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovespink88

Thank you for this. My parents' friends have a daughter who went through something extremely similar.

Yes...yes...there is also a Lifetime movie about that.

It is not uncommon for the public to form an opinion which I don't see many people having a problem with for cases like Sandusky at Penn State.

crosscaravan · #18 11-12-2011, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here, and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

victoriana · #19 11-12-2011, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.

Blaming a minor victim in a sexual abuse case is correlated with blaming a minor for requesting alcohol (or drugs or anything else) from an adult. This is especially the case when talking about male minors as victims. It is not uncommon for people to accuse boys of requesting alcohol, drugs, and sex as though the fact that they are boys is overriden by their supposed "request."

You would probably be less inclined to say this about girls being given alcohol because you would be more inclined to acknowledge alcohol as a facilitating factor for the sexual abuse of girls.

I see where you're coming from. From your perspective, what could have happened is that the kids didn't ask the teacher to buy them alcohol, but she offered it to them in order to get them intoxicated so she could take advantage of them. That is what could have happened, but we don't know details and we shouldn't assume. I think it's likely that these kids asked the teacher to buy them alcohol. That wouldn't surprise me at all. Kids ask adults to buy alcohol for them all the time. Maybe she did have the ulterior motive of taking advantage of them later on. We don't know.

As for the gender issue, it doesn't matter if it was a girl or a boy illegally asking an adult to buy them alcohol. I'm not saying that it's a "boys will be boys" sort of situation at all. I think that girls can be just as guilty of this. I'm not saying that it's okay for an adult to supply minors with alcohol. Alcohol can be and often is a factor in sexual abuse cases, no matter the gender of the victim.

victoriana · #20 11-12-2011, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here, and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

I 100% agree with you. If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

DrPhil · #21 11-12-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here

"The devil doesn't need an advocate."

~ Me

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

...and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

As for the bolded, idiots and wrongdoers are among the reasons why we have laws to protect children.

Dear Accused Teacher, Little Tommy cannot request sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll. He can't.

DrPhil · #22 11-12-2011, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victoriana

I 100% agree with you. If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

This is ridiculous. The adult had both the legal and moral obligation. Children are children and the parents need to be the ones concerned with the corporal punishment if there is any.

Again, the alcohol is a facilitating factor for what allegedly came next.

christiangirl · #23 11-12-2011, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by victoriana

If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

Okay, I do agree with this to an extent. I see what you're saying. But I also agree that whatever happened after that exchange (and during for the most part) is morally and legally the fault of the teacher. Asking for what you shouldn't have is wrong but that's like .00001% of the fault to bare in this case.

*It's terrible how many HP metaphors are going through my mind. I'll spare you all my nerdiness and keep them to myself.*

If this does go to trial, she's going to have one hell of a time getting a "fair" anything. Dee is right--in cases like this, the person is often crucified by the media before it even gets that far. I do believe in innocent 'til proven guilty but 53 counts...doggone. All I can do is SMH and wonder WHAT was she thinking.

DSTRen13 · #24 11-12-2011, 05:11 PM

It's also important to bear in mind that even when you are looking at a case where the student is of age, but still a student, it is still wrong. Not *as* wrong, but still wrong - the student/teacher relationship is a power thing, and no matter the age, the teacher is still committing a gross violation of their status as an authority figure.

When I was in high school, we had one of these situations come up with a female teacher and one of the guys who was in my class year. I don't know all the legal details, but they both left the school and their families (he left his parents & she left her husband and children). Last I heard, they're still together. To this day I find the whole thing incredibly disturbing.

christiangirl · #25 11-12-2011, 05:26 PM

Ren, were you (and he) a senior that year or was there no chance he was of age? I'm just curious. The answer won't reverse the vomit creeping up my throat because that's so far past creepy.

An old high school friend was arrested a couple years ago for having a relationsip with a student. He was 23 and she was 17, I believe. Knowing him to be a "good guy," knowing there are relationships with wider age ranges, knowing it wasn't about sex and that they did actually have a relationship....I still think it was wrong. I was saddened by how it destroyed his reputation and made him lose his job but I really can't say anything. She was off-limits whether or not she was 17-almost-18. He was her teacher and consequently, their relationship could NEVER be equal until he wasn't anymore. It was an abuse of power whether he intended it to be or not. He should have known better.

Which brings me back to the point we were discussing ^^^up there somewhere. If these children sought out alcohol or whatever from their teacher, that was wrong because they knew they shouldn't have it. I acknowledge that. But everything before, during, and after that falls on the teacher's shoulders. Even if some of them were "of age" there was a power dynamic involved and it was her responsibility to avoid this. The legal system can work out the rest.

KSUViolet06 · #26 11-12-2011, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

You're giving kids way too much credit if you think "most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no."

You haven't spent much time with middle schoolers, have you?

AGDee · #27 11-12-2011, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

It's also important to bear in mind that even when you are looking at a case where the student is of age, but still a student, it is still wrong. Not *as* wrong, but still wrong - the student/teacher relationship is a power thing, and no matter the age, the teacher is still committing a gross violation of their status as an authority figure.

When I was in high school, we had one of these situations come up with a female teacher and one of the guys who was in my class year. I don't know all the legal details, but they both left the school and their families (he left his parents & she left her husband and children). Last I heard, they're still together. To this day I find the whole thing incredibly disturbing.

There is a difference between morally/ethically wrong and illegal though.

The article is clearly poorly written. A "minor" is different depending on whether you're talking about alcohol, tobacco/voting, or age of consent. It's an inconsistent term that should have been clarified. Someone can be a minor in relation to alcohol but legally of consent and able to get married.

*winter* · #28 11-12-2011, 06:32 PM

Sorry, it's probably just best to "agree to disagree" but the kids were being KIDS...which is where ADULTS need to be adults.

No matter how people phrase it, it sounds like the girl got raped after the party because she allowed herself to get drunk. A middle school kid curious about alcohol should not have to become a victim of sexual abuse to satisfy that curiosity. In a perfect world, middle school kids wouldn't be dreaming of such things. But in this world- Earth- kids can and do think about experimenting with alcohol. That's where ADULTS come in to point them in the right direction...to use it as a learning opportunity, not to say "Hey the state store is around the corner; I'm driving!"

I don't care if they asked the teacher for freaking heroin, the bottom line is, SHE was the teacher, SHE is an ADULT...and no matter what idea may pop into her head at that moment, SHE is responsible for controlling her actions and responses, PERIOD. And if she can't "handle" that...then don't BE a teacher.

I wonder what it was about that particular teacher that made kids think she'd buy alcohol? I mean, I'm not a teacher- yet- but I don't think being asked to buy beer is a common middle-school phenomenon. Lots of times these "predator-teachers" are the "fun" ones who use an easy sequey into the adult world, and adult things (like smoking, alcohol, sex, porn, etc) to get kids to show an interest in THEM.

*winter* · #29 11-12-2011, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Ren, were you (and he) a senior that year or was there no chance he was of age? I'm just curious. The answer won't reverse the vomit creeping up my throat because that's so far past creepy.

An old high school friend was arrested a couple years ago for having a relationsip with a student. He was 23 and she was 17, I believe. Knowing him to be a "good guy," knowing there are relationships with wider age ranges, knowing it wasn't about sex and that they did actually have a relationship....I still think it was wrong. I was saddened by how it destroyed his reputation and made him lose his job but I really can't say anything. She was off-limits whether or not she was 17-almost-18. He was her teacher and consequently, their relationship could NEVER be equal until he wasn't anymore. It was an abuse of power whether he intended it to be or not. He should have known better.

Which brings me back to the point we were discussing ^^^up there somewhere. If these children sought out alcohol or whatever from their teacher, that was wrong because they knew they shouldn't have it. I acknowledge that. But everything before, during, and after that falls on the teacher's shoulders. Even if some of them were "of age" there was a power dynamic involved and it was her responsibility to avoid this. The legal system can work out the rest.

Agreed on all points.

DSTRen13 · #30 11-12-2011, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christiangirl

Ren, were you (and he) a senior that year or was there no chance he was of age? I'm just curious. The answer won't reverse the vomit creeping up my throat because that's so far past creepy.

We were seniors when the relationship was discovered, but it was brought out that they had apparently been together for quite a while.

Quote:

Originally Posted by christiangirl

She was off-limits whether or not she was 17-almost-18. He was her teacher and consequently, their relationship could NEVER be equal until he wasn't anymore. It was an abuse of power whether he intended it to be or not. He should have known better.

Exactly. My dad was my mom's teacher, which freaks out a lot of people - but they didn't date until she was in college. I don't have a problem with that - it's kind of like when someone dates someone who they used to supervise at work. If you no longer work together, it's no big deal. If you're still their boss, then that's completely inappropriate.