Shocked & Disgusted

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"Moral equivalent" is the surface level. If you only deal with surface level then it would appear to be the same thing, as I stated in my post. I don't deal with surface level so...we can end this transaction because I'm typing about stuff beyond the surface.

Yea!!!! You're back (at least for a while). You've been missed!

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Your 'different dynamics' are just justifications as why it's okay to vote for a person based on their skin pigmentation.

How is despising Obama or being afraid of him because he's black not the moral equivalent of supporting him simply because he's black? What you offered were reasons -- justifications as to why you think that's fine. That's all well and good, given your obvious problems with this "KKKountry's"h history, but you're just trying to justify a behavior you would condemn if it was a white man supporting a white candidate because they were white.

Been to West Virginia lately?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Been to West Virginia lately?

West Virginia, or at least parts of it, is the exception, not the rule.

Thank God for that.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I've been lurking since yesterday to see GCers' reactions. This username will self-destruct after the post-election hoopla is over.






At the surface level, sure.

Beneath the surface and taking a critical look, NO. There are different dynamics at play:

1. A large %, if not a majority, of people who voted for McCain would've done regardless because they are Repub. So the racial eptithets and hatred in those rallies and more subtly in some of the commercials were unncecessary political tactics if we're looking at people's political loyalties. But they were employed to spark fear and racial threat from McCain supporters and hopefully sway Independents, undecideds, and Democrats based on hatred, threat, and fear of the unknown (and not just the political unknown but racial and ethnic correlates of it). That's significant and should be rememberred when we try to act like racism and prejudice operate in the same manner for majority and minority racial and ethnic groups.

2. This is the first time a nonwhite man was a plausible candidate. So a bunch of people finally being excited by having a black man, or a woman, isn't hardly the same thing. It doesn't have the same potential impact on society as a bunch of people who are deadset on keeping white men in the White House. Different sentiments are expressed, one regarding hope and excitement for something different (even nonblacks laugh at the image of stuffy politicians as "white males in dark suits") and the other regarding a desire to keep the racial glass ceiling and a hypocritical interpretation of The Constitution and The American Dream.

3. A large %, if not a majority, of voters who voted for Obama would have voted for a Democrat, anyway. Repubs aside, many registered Independents also vote Democrat more often than not. Obama's skin color helped get new registered voters and encouraged some people to vote this time around---don't know the final stats on that so people can just theorize at this point--but a lot of these people would've voted Dem regardless if a white Dem had mobilized them the way that Obama's people did. His skin color made people more excited and was a good talking point. But it isn't uncommon for many people (read: not just black people) to religiously vote Democrat but not really know about the issues or to be able to explain their vote. This time they were simply able to say "he's black" as an additional seemingly superficial reason (that's not superficial at all given this KKKountry's history).

*******
I'm glad I was wrong about America being ready to elect a nonwhite POTUS. It couldn't happen with just the black and other minority vote. Whites were a large % of the vote. More work has to be done and we are nowhere near where we need to be as a nation. So I don't want people to assume that America is truly READY for a nonwhite POTUS. That remains to be seen. And structural racism and inequality did not disappear Tuesday evening so having a black POTUS does not make things better in society as a whole.

Of course, how well he will do remains to be seen. I just hope he will be given a fair chance that isn't based on his skin color and these "messiah-like" expectations. He's made a lot of promises but we should all know that the POTUS isn't in control as much as they claim that they are. He will have to do a lot that he doesn't want to do. And he won't be as honest and forthcoming as he is promising he'll be. He can't--the public can't and won't know everything.

I completely agree with you on this. However, I do not agree that this extends to people (including celebrities) who have said that they would have voted for the black man running no matter who he was. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm a feminist, so I'd vote for a qualified woman over an equally qualified man with the same beliefs but not just any woman (ie. Palin.) I think that is the difference.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I completely agree with you on this. However, I do not agree that this extends to people (including celebrities) who have said that they would have voted for the black man running no matter who he was. That doesn't sit well with me. I'm a feminist, so I'd vote for a qualified woman over an equally qualified man with the same beliefs but not just any woman (ie. Palin.) I think that is the difference.

Well, of the small % of black Repubs there are, some of them voted for Obama and SOME (read: some) of them said it was because of the opportunity to vote for a black man. But whether that would've happened regardless of who the candidate is, is something we can't assume.

Example: Jesse Jackson did better in 1984 and 1988 than people expected and got a lot of primary votes. But he still didn't win over black voters and have the longstanding support that people expected him to. Part of that has to do with the time period of racial politics (1984, 1988) and some has to do with the fact that many blacks weren't fond of a Jackson presidency, including his inability to censor himself. Blacks, in general, liked him as an activist and loved the idea of a black president, sometime---but NOT Jackson. He still wouldn't have won because he lacked the backing from whites, which is what Obama had and ALL candidates need to win.

But the fact remains that Obama was deemed highly qualified, even if folks weren't as knowledgeable about him and his platform as they should've been. His views were not in constrast with how many of these blacks viewed social, political and economic policy--he's a Dem and many found only small differences between Hillary and Barack's platforms. If it was a black candidate that these black voters were nervous about or a black candidate that was a conservative Republican, such as Armstrong Williams, the average black voter may not have even LIKED HIM, let alone voted for him. (I like Armstrong, though ) Now, Colin Powell is different because some people view him as more of a reluctant Repub and less conservative than he lets on.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Well, of the small % of black Repubs there are, some of them voted for Obama and SOME (read: some) of them said it was because of the opportunity to vote for a black man. But whether that would've happened regardless of who the candidate is, is something we can't assume.

Example: Jesse Jackson did better in 1984 and 1988 than people expected and got a lot of primary votes. But he still didn't win over black voters and have the longstanding support that people expected him to. Part of that has to do with the time period of racial politics (1984, 1988) and some has to do with the fact that many blacks weren't fond of a Jackson presidency, including his inability to censor himself. Blacks, in general, liked him as an activist and loved the idea of a black president, sometime---but NOT Jackson. He still wouldn't have won because he lacked the backing from whites, which is what Obama had and ALL candidates need to win.

But the fact remains that Obama was deemed highly qualified, even if folks weren't as knowledgeable about him and his platform as they should've been. His views were not in constrast with how many of these blacks viewed social, political and economic policy--he's a Dem and many found only small differences between Hillary and Barack's platforms. If it was a black candidate that these black voters were nervous about or a black candidate that was a conservative Republican, such as Armstrong Williams, the average black voter may not have even LIKED HIM, let alone voted for him. (I like Armstrong, though ) Now, Colin Powell is different because some people view him as more of a reluctant Repub and less conservative than he lets on.

I see what you are saying....but be aware that it does seem like racism to people when someone claims that the only reason they voted for someone is for their race. I totally understand where anyone like this is coming from and am playing devil's advocate, but a statement like that really upsets many people, not just racists. My husband was really offended by that, and I can tell you that he is the most open minded person I've ever met. We all have our prejudices, but sometimes we should all be careful to not stir up unnecessary emotions. I have a feeling that despite what these people say, race is NOT the reason why they chose to vote for Obama, though it was a huge factor.

[ZTAMich]

One of the 4th graders I tutor said to me on Wednesday "My mommy says only people with your kind of skin voted for McCain and none of you voted for Obama."

I told her we shouldn't vote for people because of what they look like or if they are a man or a woman. We vote for the candidate whose ideas we agree with.

I think it was a great step for our country in electing our first african american president but sadly it takes more than a new president to change some people's views.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by ZTAMich

One of the 4th graders I tutor said to me on Wednesday "My mommy says only people with your kind of skin voted for McCain and none of you voted for Obama."

I am agog...what does this idiot woman think, 50% of the electorate is black? Who does she think half of Hollywood voted for? If I'm not mistaken, Obama got more of the white vote than either Gore or Kerry.

I feel like teaching is made more problematic by the idiot parents.

My nephew came home upset on Election Day because some of his classmates called Barack Obama a "babykiller." He was like, "Clearly, he would be in prison if he was killing people--not running for President!" His teacher told the kids that if they didn't like Obama, then they could just leave the country. Totally insane for the second grade!

[ZTAMich]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I am agog...what does this idiot woman think, 50% of the electorate is black? Who does she think half of Hollywood voted for? If I'm not mistaken, Obama got more of the white vote than either Gore or Kerry.

I feel like teaching is made more problematic by the idiot parents.

My nephew came home upset on Election Day because some of his classmates called Barack Obama a "babykiller." He was like, "Clearly, he would be in prison if he was killing people--not running for President!" His teacher told the kids that if they didn't like Obama, then they could just leave the country. Totally insane for the second grade!

Ugh the parents up here...don't get me started! Still not as bad as suburban parents I think so I shouldn't complain.

As per your nephew's teacher -I would take a different spin on the people who don't like Obama. I'd tell the kids that grown ups have a choice (i'm all about choices with my class) If you don't like Obama don't vote for him. But once the election is over I believe it is our job as Americans to support whoever is in power (i'm also all about respect for others).

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by ZTAMich

As per your nephew's teacher -I would take a different spin on the people who don't like Obama. I'd tell the kids that grown ups have a choice (i'm all about choices with my class) If you don't like Obama don't vote for him. But once the election is over I believe it is our job as Americans to support whoever is in power (i'm also all about respect for others).

Yeah, I think she was at her wit's end with that situation, and apparently the kids are much more respectful now. But "babykillers"? They're 7!

[AKA_Monet]

Umm... Why are we arguing about this?

Do you all think fools would really want to stave off the Inauguration without the Secret Service and other agencies NOT finding it out? Good luck with that...

And so what if folks voted for a candidate based on the color of his skin? What difference does it make after the votes are tallied? Yes, some people voted for Obama SOLELY on skin color. Yes, some people voted for McCain SOLELY on "lack of skin" color... (I really think people voted against McCain because of Sarah Palin and her antics--SNL/Bill Maher/Daily Show/Chocolate News made some money on lampooning her...) So does that make people who voted against her sexist? And think, we ALL voted against Bush--which makes us anti-dunces...

There were 7 other sets (I think) of those who were running for President--not saying they were viable--but they were running for the US presidency...

So how do they rate?

The fact is all of us have to start doing some gross introspection as to how we define ourselves as Americans. Because things done changed...

It is the dawn of a new era...

The World is happy because of this.

Is racism dead?

Since the campaigns were likened to be the birth pangs. Maybe President Obama's election is the actual birth.

Now we have to take care of a newborn--change it's diapers, which takes ~2 weeks for chit to get stinky--but we love OUR baby nonetheless... We have to feed this newborn, give it tummy time, breastfeed it, burp it... It's going take awhile to nurture this newborn in yearly times. And we will have to readjust our lifestyles to take care of our baby--this new Age...

Will we do early childhood development to allow our new Age baby thrive?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I am agog...what does this idiot woman think, 50% of the electorate is black? Who does she think half of Hollywood voted for? If I'm not mistaken, Obama got more of the white vote than either Gore or Kerry.

Exactly. This election placed a mirror in front of Americans and showed how uninformed and easily baited they are.

You mean, a candidate can't win without the white vote? I thought only black people voted for Obama!!!!! He needed white people, too?!?!?!?!

[ASTalumna06]

Everyone has their reasons for voting for one candidate or the other, but I can guarantee you that a good portion of people have no idea what either candidate stands for.

I work in a law office with someone who used to be a district attorney. He had other people on his campaign take polls of people and ask them who they were voting for, and why. There was a ridiculous amount of people who said they were voting for him, but with reasons that had nothing to do with his policies or ideals. He said, "three women were asked why they were voting for me. One woman said, 'I love his eyes, they're so blue.' The other two women agreed and said, 'Yes, I love his eyes, he's so handsome."

It happens.

And I can tell you now that since Obama won, there has been racism in the other direction, also. My boyfriend works at a bank inside of a Wal-Mart. Yesterday, he was walking into work and there was a greeter at the door; an older woman who is white. A black woman was trying to get a carriage with one of the baby seats in it, way in the back of all of the others. The greeter walked over to her and asked her if she needed help, and the woman responded, and I quote, “No, I don’t need YOUR help, we have a black man in the white house now, I can do what I want all by myself.”

It’s going to be a rough time on both sides of the fence. I think it’s great that Obama was elected, but I still don’t know if it’s the right time for it. There are still a whole lot of people who are not tolerant of those who aren’t like themselves. In 20 years, it might not even be much of a problem at all. And could this all blow over in a couple of weeks? Sure. But there’s definitely a possibility that this is going to be a long and bumpy road.

[DaemonSeid]

Did South Africa go thru this when Mandela was elected?

[RU OX Alum]

McCain-anites?