South vs. North?

[AngelPhiSig]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

You might want to read up on Robert E. Lee a little more -- he went to West Point and was stationed in Ohio, Missouri, Iowa and New York, among other places. In the early stages of the Civil War, he considered the succession of the Southern states to be betrayal of principles on which this country was built. He was asked to take a command in the Union Army, which he said he would do as long as Virginia did not secede. Because he considered his primary loyalty to be to Virginia, when it was clear that Virginia would secede, and only then, did he resign his commission in the US Army.

You're my hero. I was going to say this if someone didnt... I taught that about two weeks ago to my good ol 4th graders, hooray for Virginia history!

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

The research triangle is not southern. Most of the northern Atlanta suburbs are also not southern. You make a valid point.

The geographical south is not worth a damn. Parts of Arkansas are hardly Southern, especially the parts north and west of Little Rock. Geographically one would have to include south florida, which is obviously not southern in mannerisms and language at all.

edit: Sins of my ancestors. HAH!

[SWTXBelle]

Elephant Walk - you may not realize this, but many free blacks themselves owned slaves, and many Africans were captured by their fellow Africans (from different tribes, obviously) and sold into slavery. So, yes, it is possible for your ancestors to have contributed to the problem.

[shinerbock]

I was under the impression that Elephant Walk was very white.

[SWTXBelle]

Then I don't understand the -"sins of my ancestors - HA!" comment. But okay - my point remains that, for example, for yankees to feel superior to the south because of perceived racism is to ignore the fortunes made by New England families in the slave trade. No one's hands are clean - and that should simply make us humble. I'm just really tired of hearing that the south is racist because of the War Between the States, when 9 times out of 10 the people making that argument don't know what the hell they are talking about. They took one year of American History, and know everything. If it was in their text book, it must be true.
I made the assumption that the term "elephant" referred to Delta membership. I'm sorry if I was wrong. I did check Elephant Walk's profile first. Upon reflection, I realize that perhaps he/she is a U of AL alum. Whoops. Roll Tide, if that's the case! I won't even suggest the other possible meaning of Elephant Walk . . . .

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I made the assumption that the term "elephant" referred to Delta membership.

This is the funniest misunderstanding on GreekChat. I understand that it was made with the best of intentions, SWTABelle, but it's an error not too far from David Chapelle's Blind White Supremacist. I certainly don't mean that Elephantwalk is a white supremacist, but his previous post are some of the least PC on race.

I used "our forefathers" pretty loosely. You think Lincoln meant it literally in the Gettysburg address?

[SWTXBelle]

It is a funny misunderstanding, and although I thought about deleting my posts, instead I think I'll leave 'em. Heck, if you can't laugh at yourself . . .

[NUBlue&Blue]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

The research triangle is not southern. Most of the northern Atlanta suburbs are also not southern. You make a valid point.

Alpharetta = Not Southern

Marietta = Definitely Southern

[UGAalum94]

I agree that there is/was racial discrimination everywhere and that the issue of race and slavery is often oversimplified in people's understanding of the Civil War which often boils down to North=good; South=bad, when it could more accurately thought of as North=bad; South=worse.

But ultimately, the Jim Crow laws in the South and people's attitude about integration in the South, make the issue, I think, uniquely more intense for the South.

Open, legal, and actively practiced discrimination on the basis of race is a whole lot more likely to have happened in the south more recently than in most other places.

However, other areas have their own issues: I think it was probably easier, until recently, as far as discrimination goes to be Hispanic in Georgia than in Texas, New Mexico or California for example.

[SWTXBelle]

But you see, you are buying into the arguement that the South was bad - or worse. My earlier post I think makes it clear that to argue that the War was fought over slavery is to ignore the fact that slavery remained legal in the Union after it had been declared illegal in the South. How can you say you are fighting a war to abolish slavery, when you continue to practice it yourself? The issue of the growth of the Federal government - the fact that in 1861 the south was paying 87% of all tariffs to the USA government - the issue of state's rights - it's too much to go into here, but suffice it to say that my marriage to a history professor has given me lots of information regarding the reasons behind the War. (It's his specialty) England was able to abolish slavery without a war - every other nation in the Western Hemisphere was also. Am I to believe that we were the only nation who couldn't? I could, if you like, point you to quotes from Lincoln, Grant and Sherman about race that would make your hair curl. A professor once made the point that the issue of racism in the north and south could be described as this - in the south, blacks were an accepted part of society, the question was their role. In the north, they were not even accepted. Lincoln famously suggested that freed blacks be shipped back to Africa. The Draft Riots of 1863 were in New York City, not some southern city. And hey - the Dred Scott case was decided by the largely-northern Supreme Court, which overturned the earlier ruling of the southern court. (!!)
As to today, as I look at the news, I really think that racism in various forms is spread pretty evenly. If you are in the south, obviously you hear more about incidents here, but I remember when I lived up north hearing plenty.
My ulimate point is that I hate to see southerners carrying the burden of a guilt which has been unfairly laid on their shoulders. I think that rather than dwelling on the past, it is better to look at the progress that has been made, and continues to be made, and do all we can to further the idea that all men are equal before the law. That's it - I just want you to feel you can state you love the south without feeling obligated to make a qualifying statement.

[SWTXBelle]

And now for something completely different . . .

What consititutes the north, the mid-west and the west in your mind? I'd especially like to hear from those who consider themselves from those regions. And, what do you think distinguishes your region? (Not the geographical!)

[shinerbock]

Downtown old Marietta= southern

The vast majority of Marietta= extremely not-southern

[NUBlue&Blue]

Duh, shinerbock. Unless you live IN Marietta, you just have a Marietta mailing address.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I was under the impression that Elephant Walk was very white.

Very, very, very white.

[UGAalum94]

SWTXBelle, I don't give anyone a free pass in terms of slavery and the Civil War, and I agree that many things that the South is demonized for in some ways were accelerated because of Northern policy. (For example, would Andersonville been as bad if prisoner exchanges had continued? Would it have been as bad if the south had more food in general?) And yes, if most of heroes of the Union expressed their thoughts about race today, well, let's just say that the NAACP wouldn't be pleased.

But when I contrast the experience of my parents who are only four years apart in age, the one who went to school in the south didn't experience an integrated public school until law school and the other from the west went to an integrated school from first grade on. Both went to school pre and post Brown vs. the Board of Education. One state's school system thought the supreme court decision meant what it said, and the other decided to wait and see.

I don't especially feel the weight of guilt about slavery on my "southern" shoulders (at least in part because I don't think any of my relatives, especially the southern ones had immigrated yet), but we're talking 1961 before UGA allowed black students to enroll and in some cases 1970s before some high schools in Georgia were integrated. (They had the idea of "phasing" integration in as opposed to the whole system all at once.) The sins of my forefathers, in my opinion, are a whole lot closer than the Civil War.

And yet, instead of trying to ensure decent education for all the kids in Georgia despite their parents or grandparents not getting one, we had probably a ten year fight about the state flag.

On the totally different note:

Occasionally, I'm shocked at the difference in where I categorize states regionally in terms of culture versus where they are geographically. Ohio always freaks me out. I want to think of it as Midwestern culturally, which is probably in error, but it's pretty darn far east for that. (Well not Far East, as in Asian, but you know what I mean.)