advice for appealing probation / termination decision

[sweetheart272]

hello, i am removing my comments because i feel this issue is resolved. thank you all for your help!

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

thanks for your reply!

what's complicated about the infractions of the past is when this all initially happened the proceedings of my disciplinary meetings were very vague about most of the infractions. i couldn't list the exact infractions that are in my "record" or whatever because even when i asked they wouldn't tell me.

although i don't wish to slander anyone or disclose personal or private info on this forum, i'm making sure that no school, sorority, or individuals can be identified based on my statements.

i do think it's important to disclose, not just on this post but in my correspondence with the board, that my early disciplinary hearing meetings mostly consisted of the older girls yelling at me, personally insulting me, and using lots of curse words. clearly, the reports that they sent to nationals about these hearings must have included inaccurate information. up until now, i've never had a chance to communicate my side of the story.

so, back to your original point… although i'm not sure what exactly is on my "long list of infractions," i will admit that there were rules i broke in the past that i shouldn't have (albeit i do not agree that they were serious). for instance, in my state, technically it's a law that you're not allowed to drive over any of the lines in parking lots, but just because you do that doesn't mean you should be arrested.

furthermore, even if all of the initial infractions were documented, that was years ago, and since i was watched under a microscope the whole time since i was on probation since, and the fact that they finally reinstated me off probation, i think that shows that my actions several years ago are not a reflection of who i am now.

i think that the most recent incident should be considered separately from my infractions from years ago. as for this incident, there's grey area as to whether or not i "broke a rule" because it falls under the category of "representing the sorority poorly" and that my actions made the sorority look bad. a rule like this is very subjective, and up to interpretation. i feel it's important to call certain injustices i've experienced because i don't think the situation would be handled the same way if it were another member.

so, i'm hoping i can successfully represent myself as a good member of the sorority. i think the decision here ultimately comes down to a character judgement of whether or not i'm "bad PR" for the sorority, i just want to make sure the decision makers have the right information to make that decision fairly. i just worry that they won't be able to because for years the only thing they've ever heard about me are negative (possibly untrue) reports from the disciplinary committee, and never about all the good stuff i do.

again, i appreciate your input, especially that ranting and blaming others can make it sound like i'm not taking responsibility. but i think the decision being made here would be different if certain information were omitted. for instance, if i had the same record in an exemplary chapter that had thorough supervision and documentation of all meetings… and the infractions were evidence based (unable to be manipulated by opinion or hearsay)… and there wasn't so much grey area, confusion, or misrepresentation.

pretty much, it's my word against my chapter's leaders about whether or not i'm a good member. at least some of my past infractions were rooted in mistakes i made or rules i broke, but i "did my time" and was already punished for them, then judged to be changed enough to be readmitted into the sorority. nationals would obviously be inclined to take the side of a group of leaders rather than one member who isn't an officer… but i think if they knew how corrupt the leadership, members, and operations of the chapter were, they wouldn't be inclined to find the word of the other members as so credible.

QFP.

Re: the bolded. Points to a pattern of behavior established and confirmed. And the decision makers are NOT the national leaders. They are your peers in the chapter. You don't seem to understand how the process works. This is not a court of law. It is a voluntary membership organization and as long as the organization is following its own bylaws and rules, that is all that matters.

[sweetheart272]

hello, i am removing my comments because i feel this issue is resolved. thank you all for your help!

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

at this point, i was recommended for termination by the chapter's disciplinary committee, there was a chapter wide vote on whether i should be terminated or probation (i don't know what the results of the vote were), this information was sent to nationals, who sent a letter to me saying that i'm on probation until a final decision is made. before that decision is made, i have the chance to write my letter and meet with them to present my side. so, technically, they haven't terminated me yet… although disciplinary procedures are well on their way.

i know it differs for each organization, but i've thoroughly read my bylaws over and over and based off what i've seen i don't know if there is a policy on this or if it's ever been addressed or considered.

Based on what you know, are you saying you think at this point I'd have the option to voluntarily resign, even though the disciplinary action has already begun? furthermore, wouldn't my chances of being reinstated later be very very slim if they knew i resigned with termination pending?

what you're saying makes sense though, about how they wouldn't want to go back once they've made the termination decision, but i'm pretty sure the chapter's bylaws view later reinstatement as a possibility for both those who resigned and those who are terminated.

would you suggest maybe i include in my correspondence with them proposition of resigning with agreed reinstatement or something? like i'd agree to resign for 3 years or something as long as i was "guaranteed" reinstatement (unless i did anything wrong in that period)?

No. No. No. You don't get to tell your organization what to do.

And you can voluntarily resign at any point in the process.

Look - you can't dictate to anyone. You are on such thin ice that I can hear it cracking.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

thanks! unfortunately, the organization only recently converted to a system where meeting minutes are electronic, and until very recently (like within the last month or two) i never saw or was allowed to see any of my meeting minutes, even upon request. i don't know if this was due to the organization's policy that has since been changed, or if it was due to the previous leaders not following the rules. so, unfortunately, i don't have this resource which also makes things a lot more complicated… and makes it more complicated for me to present my side in a way that isn't complicated and convoluted!


i'm really taking into consideration what you're saying about how pointing out bad leadership is usually ineffective, but i would think that nationals would want to know that because having good, strong chapters is more important than the discipline of any one member.

like i said, they've been on probation several times before, so obviously nationals themselves had questioned the leadership, and even though most recently they're in good standing… i know for a fact and have proof of (such as social media screenshots, emails, pictures, etc.) the fact that the leaders have continued to put on and endorse sorority-linked alcohol events, even though that was the most recent reason why they were on probation.

i guess this is the most important decision i'm trying to make (and why i'm seeking input): do i focus my presentation on myself and my positive qualities, rather than questioning the credibility and integrity of the processes that got me there, and excluding solid evidence that would probably be of major concern to nationals, because including those things may make it seem like i'm a finger-pointer, always making excuses… or should i use this opportunity (which will likely be the only chance i get) to explain to nationals the truth of what is going on in the chapter… because again, a whole chapter's behavior is more of a concern to the sorority on a national level than one individual's may be.

It does not appear that you are listening. You're still doing a lot of "yes but" and blaming and casting shade on them. Your pattern of behavior is what got you to this point, regardless of anything else.

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

thanks for your insight. it is confusing trying to understand the process, because i tend to assume it's like the american legal system when i don't know (since i know a lot more about those laws)

but nevertheless, i feel that it's still appropriate here to consider the most recent incident separately. is it really a pattern of behavior if for years i had good behavior with no infractions? additionally, even though sheer number of infractions matter, is it pertinent that this most recent event was unrelated to the initial infractions?

i won't use my real information/alleged infractions, but a made-up example to demonstrate my point.


if suzy wuzy got put on probation 1 year ago because of infractions related to poor social behavior (i.e. dancing on tables at bars, throwing up because of drinking too much alcohol, explicit PDA, etc.) but then she was on probation for a year and was let off because she was evaluated to have good behavior, then a few months later, disciplinary actions were taken because she was accused of hazing a pledge because she made the pledge drive her to class every day or something)

is it still considered a pattern of concerning behavior, even though she learned from her past mistakes and didn't do those things again?

No she did entirely new things which were still under the umbrella of "conduct unbecoming". I ask you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and read everything you've written. Now, what do YOU think?

ETA: either you're a troll, or you're just unbelievably obtuse and can't accept responsibility for your own actions.

[sweetheart272]

Originally Posted by AZTheta

No. No. No. You don't get to tell your organization what to do.

And you can voluntarily resign at any point in the process.

Look - you can't dictate to anyone. You are on such thin ice that I can hear it cracking.




It does not appear that you are listening. You're still doing a lot of "yes but" and blaming and casting shade on them. Your pattern of behavior is what got you to this point, regardless of anything else.



No she did entirely new things which were still under the umbrella of "conduct unbecoming". I ask you to put yourself in someone else's shoes and read everything you've written. Now, what do YOU think?

ETA: either you're a troll, or you're just unbelievably obtuse and can't accept responsibility for your own actions.

wow. i gotta say your post hit me like a pound of bricks, definitely hurtful being called obtuse. nevertheless, i am really happy for your posts, as well as others.


i'm not a very skilled communicator. everything i write or say tends to be really wordy and go off on many tangents. i also feel i must have a very different process of mental reasoning and understanding than other people, because i often misunderstand others and others often misunderstand me and my intentions.

you're a very insightful individual… from just reading a few posts of mine, it seems like you were able to understand some of my issues very well. i literally just had a discussion earlier this week with a counselor and the same terminology of my "yes, but.." reasoning and communication was used.

obviously this is indicative of one of probably many flaws i have. i understand why that may make it seem like i am an unsuitable candidate for sorority membership. however, i think that despite my flaws i am able to contribute to the sorority in more ways than i would threaten or be detrimental to it. perhaps my thinking is wrong, because obviously I'm biased since its about me. i don't know. perhaps it is true that i am not worthy of membership in a sorority.

i hope that's not the case, because as i said i do feel really strongly that i deserve to be able to continue to be involved. i know i could do a lot of good things and be very hard working and devoted. i also know there's several sisters who have learned about the situation and definitely feel that i was mistreated and that there are certain huge issues with our chapter.


well, like pretty much everything i say… this post kinda jumped all over the place. but as a concluding point i guess id like to say that i really appreciate the feedback that's been posted so far. i may be flawed, but one positive trait i have that many don't is an extreme desire and drive for self-improvement and trying to learn and change based off of constructive criticism of others.


therefore, if you have any other suggestions or comments you'd like to share, i would appreciate it. i value what you all have to say!

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

wow. i gotta say your post hit me like a pound of bricks, definitely hurtful being called obtuse. nevertheless, i am really happy for your posts, as well as others.


i'm not a very skilled communicator. everything i write or say tends to be really wordy and go off on many tangents. i also feel i must have a very different process of mental reasoning and understanding than other people, because i often misunderstand others and others often misunderstand me and my intentions.

you're a very insightful individual… from just reading a few posts of mine, it seems like you were able to understand some of my issues very well. i literally just had a discussion earlier this week with a counselor and the same terminology of my "yes, but.." reasoning and communication was used.

obviously this is indicative of one of probably many flaws i have. i understand why that may make it seem like i am an unsuitable candidate for sorority membership. however, i think that despite my flaws i am able to contribute to the sorority in more ways than i would threaten or be detrimental to it. perhaps my thinking is wrong, because obviously I'm biased since its about me. i don't know. perhaps it is true that i am not worthy of membership in a sorority.

i hope that's not the case, because as i said i do feel really strongly that i deserve to be able to continue to be involved. i know i could do a lot of good things and be very hard working and devoted. i also know there's several sisters who have learned about the situation and definitely feel that i was mistreated and that there are certain huge issues with our chapter.


well, like pretty much everything i say… this post kinda jumped all over the place. but as a concluding point i guess id like to say that i really appreciate the feedback that's been posted so far. i may be flawed, but one positive trait i have that many don't is an extreme desire and drive for self-improvement and trying to learn and change based off of constructive criticism of others.


therefore, if you have any other suggestions or comments you'd like to share, i would appreciate it. i value what you all have to say!

I'm having a sleepless night and I just can't give you any more. Maybe some other GCers will wake up and have something to say to you. Your extrapolating is too exhausting for me. I'm not saying you're Breaking Bad: the sequel. I'm saying that further conversation with you on my part isn't prudent or beneficial. Obtuse in the sense of slow to understand; be glad I didn't use recalcitrant, fractious, or annoying.

[33girl]

Wow. It seems as though you and this chapter were a bad fit from the get-go (being extremely euphemistic here).

If you believe that the networking and volunteer opportunities your org provides are that incredibly awesome, go for it and plead your case to national, but also realize that people talk and it's not a clean slate.

It goes without saying that retaining your membership status will not necessarily result in what we term "sisterhood. "

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by sweetheart272

i do think it's important to disclose, not just on this post but in my correspondence with the board, that my early disciplinary hearing meetings mostly consisted of the older girls yelling at me, personally insulting me, and using lots of curse words. clearly, the reports that they sent to nationals about these hearings must have included inaccurate information. up until now, i've never had a chance to communicate my side of the story.

Was there no chapter advisor present? Are you in an NPC group? I'd be very surprised if there are NPC groups that do not require an alumna advisor to be involved in disciplinary proceedings.

Overall, it doesn't sound like you are taking responsibility for anything that has happened, but if there's one thing about your story that you could potentially use as a "defense," it's that the chapter probably didn't follow procedure if they did all of this without alumnae involvement.