Teacher Accused of Statutory Rape and Other Offenses

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If victoriana was only talking about the dumb residents, my bad! My response to victoriana should be applied to the dumb residents and not to victoriana.

I was referring to the part of the article that said "Clifton is accused of providing alcohol to and contributing to the delinquency of a minor." I could see a situation where the minors asked the woman for alcohol, so she got it for them. In that sort of situation, the minor IS partially responsible because they asked for it. I suppose that is what popped into my mind first.

Dr. Phil, I DEFINITELY agree that anyone who is sexually abused, especially minors, are victims in a situation like that. As a victim of sexual abuse personally, I would never say that these kids aren't victims. What happened to them is horrible. I think it could have been prevented had the parents in the town been paying more attention to their kids. Of course now that it has happened, the parents blame them for it. There is nothing I hate more than blaming the victim in a sexual abuse situation.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by victoriana

I was referring to the part of the article that said "Clifton is accused of providing alcohol to and contributing to the delinquency of a minor." I could see a situation where the minors asked the woman for alcohol, so she got it for them. In that sort of situation, the minor IS partially responsible because they asked for it. I suppose that is what popped into my mind first.

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.

Originally Posted by victoriana

Dr. Phil, I DEFINITELY agree that anyone who is sexually abused, especially minors, are victims in a situation like that. As a victim of sexual abuse personally, I would never say that these kids aren't victims. What happened to them is horrible. I think it could have been prevented had the parents in the town been paying more attention to their kids. Of course now that it has happened, the parents blame them for it. There is nothing I hate more than blaming the victim in a sexual abuse situation.

Blaming a minor victim in a sexual abuse case is correlated with blaming a minor for requesting alcohol (or drugs or anything else) from an adult. This is especially the case when talking about male minors as victims. It is not uncommon for people to accuse boys of requesting alcohol, drugs, and sex as though the fact that they are boys is overriden by their supposed "request."

You would probably be less inclined to say this about girls being given alcohol because you would be more inclined to acknowledge alcohol as a facilitating factor for the sexual abuse of girls.

[crosscaravan]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here, and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here, and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

I 100% agree with you. If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by victoriana

I 100% agree with you. If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

This is ridiculous. The adult had both the legal and moral obligation. Children are children and the parents need to be the ones concerned with the corporal punishment if there is any.

Again, the alcohol is a facilitating factor for what allegedly came next.

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by victoriana

If these minors did indeed ask the teacher for alcohol and she provided it, I would say that legally, the kids can't be held responsible but morally, they should be. They know that it's wrong for them to have alcohol. The teacher should have known better than to give it to them, but the kids should have known better than to ask.

Okay, I do agree with this to an extent. I see what you're saying. But I also agree that whatever happened after that exchange (and during for the most part) is morally and legally the fault of the teacher. Asking for what you shouldn't have is wrong but that's like .00001% of the fault to bare in this case.

*It's terrible how many HP metaphors are going through my mind. I'll spare you all my nerdiness and keep them to myself.*

If this does go to trial, she's going to have one hell of a time getting a "fair" anything. Dee is right--in cases like this, the person is often crucified by the media before it even gets that far. I do believe in innocent 'til proven guilty but 53 counts...doggone. All I can do is SMH and wonder WHAT was she thinking.

[DSTRen13]

It's also important to bear in mind that even when you are looking at a case where the student is of age, but still a student, it is still wrong. Not *as* wrong, but still wrong - the student/teacher relationship is a power thing, and no matter the age, the teacher is still committing a gross violation of their status as an authority figure.

When I was in high school, we had one of these situations come up with a female teacher and one of the guys who was in my class year. I don't know all the legal details, but they both left the school and their families (he left his parents & she left her husband and children). Last I heard, they're still together. To this day I find the whole thing incredibly disturbing.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

It's also important to bear in mind that even when you are looking at a case where the student is of age, but still a student, it is still wrong. Not *as* wrong, but still wrong - the student/teacher relationship is a power thing, and no matter the age, the teacher is still committing a gross violation of their status as an authority figure.

When I was in high school, we had one of these situations come up with a female teacher and one of the guys who was in my class year. I don't know all the legal details, but they both left the school and their families (he left his parents & she left her husband and children). Last I heard, they're still together. To this day I find the whole thing incredibly disturbing.

There is a difference between morally/ethically wrong and illegal though.

The article is clearly poorly written. A "minor" is different depending on whether you're talking about alcohol, tobacco/voting, or age of consent. It's an inconsistent term that should have been clarified. Someone can be a minor in relation to alcohol but legally of consent and able to get married.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

I'm going to play the Devil's advocate here

"The devil doesn't need an advocate."

~ Me

Originally Posted by crosscaravan

...and say that while I do agree with you, I also think that may be the point she's trying to make, though. They requested it even though it's not legal for them to have it. From a legal standpoint, the kids aren't responsible - she should have known better than to actually listen to the kids, for goodness' sake. She's the adult in that situation. But assuming all these charges are true, she may not have considered giving them the alcohol if they hadn't asked.

Like you said, legally they can't be held even partially responsible for requesting it, because she should have known better than to say "lol, that's fine, what kind do you want?" Morally, it's even worse - but from a non-legal standpoint, the fact that the kids asked for something that they knew was illegal could show that they knew that what they were doing was wrong, but they chose to do it anyway.

I mean, think what you may of the cognitive abilities of minors, but I'm still pretty sure most middle school kids know that alcohol is a no-no.

As for the bolded, idiots and wrongdoers are among the reasons why we have laws to protect children.

Dear Accused Teacher, Little Tommy cannot request sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll. He can't.

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No, the minors are not partially responsible. Minors (people who are legally considered minors) cannot legally request alcohol from an adult in jurisdictions where people under a certain age cannot legally consume alcohol.



Blaming a minor victim in a sexual abuse case is correlated with blaming a minor for requesting alcohol (or drugs or anything else) from an adult. This is especially the case when talking about male minors as victims. It is not uncommon for people to accuse boys of requesting alcohol, drugs, and sex as though the fact that they are boys is overriden by their supposed "request."

You would probably be less inclined to say this about girls being given alcohol because you would be more inclined to acknowledge alcohol as a facilitating factor for the sexual abuse of girls.

I see where you're coming from. From your perspective, what could have happened is that the kids didn't ask the teacher to buy them alcohol, but she offered it to them in order to get them intoxicated so she could take advantage of them. That is what could have happened, but we don't know details and we shouldn't assume. I think it's likely that these kids asked the teacher to buy them alcohol. That wouldn't surprise me at all. Kids ask adults to buy alcohol for them all the time. Maybe she did have the ulterior motive of taking advantage of them later on. We don't know.

As for the gender issue, it doesn't matter if it was a girl or a boy illegally asking an adult to buy them alcohol. I'm not saying that it's a "boys will be boys" sort of situation at all. I think that girls can be just as guilty of this. I'm not saying that it's okay for an adult to supply minors with alcohol. Alcohol can be and often is a factor in sexual abuse cases, no matter the gender of the victim.