Osama Bin Laden Dead

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's not a murder.

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Just wondering if you were old enough to remember the celebrations when Ted Bundy was executed for the murder of the 3 Chi Omega members at FSU. I remember some fast food restaurants giving out free Bundy fries the day of his execution. His execution was not a murder and neither was the killing of OBL.

Bundy and bin Laden both willingly succumbed to evil. Both of them were stopped, which was necessary for the safety of the rest of us. However (again speaking from a biblical perspective), all human life deserves respect and compassion. The loss of bin Laden is the loss of a leader that, had he been on the righteous path, would have been a powerful force for good. It is heartbreaking that he made the choices he did and was responsible for so many deaths. He had to be stopped.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

[Munchkin03]

Who are the idiots who think that this means the war is over? The folks acting like it was V-E day and V-J day up in Times Square clearly never took high school history.

Also, at people equating OBL's death to Hitler's. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about the collapse of the Axis Forces during WWII, and a conflation of OBL's dastardly deeds with those of Hitler.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Who are the idiots who think that this means the war is over? The folks acting like it was V-E day and V-J day up in Times Square clearly never took high school history.

Also, at people equating OBL's death to Hitler's. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about the collapse of the Axis Forces during WWII, and a conflation of OBL's dastardly deeds with those of Hitler.

Most of what I've seen re: Hitler/Osama had to do with the confirmations of their deaths (May 1)

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Most of what I've seen re: Hitler/Osama had to do with the confirmations of their deaths (May 1)

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

While comparing something to Hitler is the automatic losing argument of the internet world, I think that those people are making the best comparison they know how.

This, all this going around right now, is a cathartic response. The stupidity, the USA USA USA, the fuck you OBL burn in hell and the tears and everything. People needed it, it brings closure and even if most of it isn't the most mature of behaviors or words, it doesn't mean it's not useful to the people feeling/saying/doing those things even if they don't know that at an intellectual level.

We'll get past it and life will go on.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

While comparing something to Hitler is the automatic losing argument of the internet world, I think that those people are making the best comparison they know how.

This, all this going around right now, is a cathartic response. The stupidity, the USA USA USA, the fuck you OBL burn in hell and the tears and everything. People needed it, it brings closure and even if most of it isn't the most mature of behaviors or words, it doesn't mean it's not useful to the people feeling/saying/doing those things even if they don't know that at an intellectual level.

We'll get past it and life will go on.

Of course we will.

I think, as a New Yorker (but not one who was here during 9/11), I'm more willing to excuse the emotional responses as catharsis and finding "closure," than I am to accept these historic comparisons that make no sense. Note that I did not criticize the emotional responses, mainly the faux-intellectual blathering and assumptions that the War on Terror is over.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Of course we will.

I think, as a New Yorker (but not one who was here during 9/11), I'm more willing to excuse the emotional responses as catharsis and finding "closure," than I am to accept these historic comparisons that make no sense. Note that I did not criticize the emotional responses, mainly the faux-intellectual blathering and assumptions that the War on Terror is over.

I know you didn't comment on the emotional responses, it was more of a general statement of my opinion. And as for historical comparison it's a bit more like if we'd gotten hitler in the middle of the war. But emotionally the feeling is probably similar and the only thing similar that they can think to compare it to.

Also comments about complacency make me chuckle. Most people are pretty complacent most of the time.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

Not to mention that "getting Hitler" pretty much did mean that the war in Europe was over.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

In that celebratory vain I offer the newest cocktail:

The OBL - 2 Shots and a Splash of Water

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

In that celebratory vain I offer the newest cocktail:

The OBL - 2 Shots and a Splash of Water

If you don't know and can't predict how those soldiers will feel, perhaps immediately making predictions was in poor taste. If you're not the one making the shot, you really don't know how it will affect the shooter, or the others involved. Seals are heroes but not superheroes, and PTSD is always a possible outcome. It's entirely unrelated to whether the target deserved it.

/yes yes, rah rah USA and all that.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

Hell, I’m sure quite a few Americans (both soldiers and non-soldiers, alike) would have liked to have been able to take him down themselves. And on the other side of it, there are probably quite a few people (soldiers included) who would prefer never to be in a situation where they had to kill anyone.

But to assume/guess how those soldiers feel about this is not the issue here.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Bundy and bin Laden both willingly succumbed to evil. Both of them were stopped, which was necessary for the safety of the rest of us. However (again speaking from a biblical perspective), all human life deserves respect and compassion. The loss of bin Laden is the loss of a leader that, had he been on the righteous path, would have been a powerful force for good. It is heartbreaking that he made the choices he did and was responsible for so many deaths. He had to be stopped.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

I don’t think that Americans were celebrating a death, as much as they were celebrating the fact that what they had feared for so long was finally gone… that the person who killed our fellow Americans could no longer do so… that after searching for nearly a decade, the man that caused so much death and destruction had been caught. Take 9/11 out of the equation for a minute. Pretend that someone had shot and killed one of your close family members, and it was known that he had done the same to others. Now pretend that they couldn’t find him… for 10 years. You mean to tell me that if he was involved in some shoot-out with police (because there was no way he was going to go quietly), and he was shot and killed, you wouldn’t feel somewhat happy/relieved that he had been stopped?

This country has lived in fear for 10 years. That fear may have dissipated a bit since 9/11, but look at our airports, our office buildings, etc. Security is tighter than it’s ever been in this country, and yes, it is because of terrorism. I know people who still haven’t boarded an airplane since that Tuesday in 2001. I lived 40 minutes outside of Boston at the time, and I knew the daughters of one of the pilots of a plane that hit the WTC. My cousin’s best friend and his fiancé were killed on one of those flights. My stepmom was sitting on the runway at Logan, ready to take off when the news broke, and the plane turned around. I lived 2 minutes away from the FAA Center that the terrorists toured before the attacks (which can no longer be toured because of that very reason). They even took down all of the signs indicating where the building is, and removed the huge model airplane out front. Things changed, people were broken, and they finally found a reason to stand up and cheer.

Taking a life SHOULD be a difficult thing… And for many of our troops, I’m sure it is, especially when killing someone who seemingly has done nothing to them. And yes, I feel for them in that respect. But for these terrorists, it’s not difficult at all. Imagine waking up, every day of your life, thinking of and plotting ways to kill people on the other side of the globe, whom you’ve never even met, for seemingly no other reason than the fact that someone told you that you should hate them. Nineteen men were willing to give up their lives so that thousands of Americans would die. Compare that to the few dozen people on board Flight 93 who were willing to die to SAVE other people whom they didn't know, and never would. Who are the heroes here? Who should we feel “respect and compassion” for?

You can talk about evil taking over these people all day long, but the fact is, these terrorists (and especially Osama bin Laden) lived to hate. That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe that some people who kill can be rehabilitated. However, these people can’t. And yes, I’m glad he’s dead. And yes, if I lived in NYC, or DC, or if I was on one of the many campuses around the country going crazy over this, I would have been outside with everyone else, waving a flag and singing ‘God Bless America.’ It’s because of that bastard that security has been heightened even further these last few days, that our troops are being more cautious than ever, and that my brother is probably now in more danger in Iraq. Even in his death, OBL has somehow found a way to screw us. So fuck him, that’s what I say.

Originally Posted by FHwku

Mona Eltahawy in New York

Originally Posted by FHwku

The Guardian, Tuesday 3 May 2011

i don't like that the writer characterizes celebration at Ground Zero as a "frat boy reaction." or when anyone feels like they need to chide someone else for expressing or having a feeling.
example:
i'm hungry.
how can you think about food at a time like this?

On a lighter note, this made me think of the Seinfeld episode when Jerry and George are in L.A. looking for Kramer after he’s been accused of murder:


Jerry: Obviously we're gonna call the police and tell them that he's not the guy.

George: Hope he's not the guy.

Jerry: Couldn't be the guy... nah.

George: God, I'm starved, I'm weak from hunger.

Jerry: How can you think of food at the time like this?

George: Time like what? I'm hungry. My stomach doesn't know that Kramer's wanted.

[Ghostwriter]

^^^^well written. I agree with most.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

/yes yes, rah rah USA and all that.

Hmmm! This says it all. You should make it your signature.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Hmmm! This says it all. You should make it your signature.

I don't feel the need for jingoism and I'm not particularly needing a cathartic response, but pretending to know what our soldiers think, felt, or reacted to the situation is it's own type of idealism. There is no evidence it was any easier to shoot bin Laden in the head because of who he was and PTSD doesn't make those sort of distinctions.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I don't feel the need for jingoism and I'm not particularly needing a cathartic response, but pretending to know what our soldiers think, felt, or reacted to the situation is it's own type of idealism. There is no evidence it was any easier to shoot bin Laden in the head because of who he was and PTSD doesn't make those sort of distinctions.

You do not know that it does bother them and you do not know that they will/may suffer PTSD. This is all your opinion, which is what this board and thread are composed. When the interviews come out with the Seal/s who shot OBL we will know. Until that time we will all have our opinion as to what effect it will have on them and whether this event is deserving of a celebration.

When I see the Seal who shot OBL breakdown and cry or tell us he is shaken to the core and suffers all sorts of psychological problems, I will know that you were right. Until that time we will not know and my beliefs/opinions are just as valid as yours.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

You do not know that it does bother them and you do not know that they will/may suffer PTSD. This is all your opinion, which is what this board and thread are composed. When the interviews come out with the Seal/s who shot OBL we will know. Until that time we will all have our opinion as to what effect it will have on them and whether this event is deserving of a celebration.

When I see the Seal who shot OBL breakdown and cry or tell us he is shaken to the core and suffers all sorts of psychological problems, I will know that you were right. Until that time we will not know and my beliefs/opinions are just as valid as yours.

What does your signature mean? Also, while I may not always agree with DF, I have to agree on this. You can't assume because you don't see someone crying/ breaking down that they don't have PTSD. Did you know that PTSD mirrors signs of ADD/ADHD in young boys when they start acting out? People think that these young kids are just hellions when in actuality, they are suffering from PTSD-which is why they are acting out in anger and being mean to people. PTSD does not always equate to crying and breaking down.

You really should not speak for people in the military (or people in general) regarding how they should or shouldn't feel in regards to taking the life of another person. Were you in the military?