Shutter Fraternities for Young Women's Good

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

I never suggested that the guy can and should get away with it.

What I'm saying is that as women we may have to exercise a little more judgment than men. That is to say use some common sense too.

If a girl at a party gets drunk and goes upstairs with a guy, what does she anticipate will happen? That he is going to do her taxes?

In other words, you are talking about victim precipitation (which is NOT synonymous with victim blame) and victimology. Victimology is extensively studied as is offender motivation.

In that case, I agree with you. As long as people know that the average rape is not a result of a victim who chose to get intoxicated or drugged and decided to hang out with potential offenders. And as long as people aren't stuck in "but why did you do that...you should've known better." After we note the instances in which the victim could have made smarter choices, there is a need to move on to determine (whether and) how the alleged perpetrator should be held accountable.

(You aren't saying "boys will be boys" or anything of that sort.)

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Good question. I was the pledge trainer and evidently someone thought it would be funny. It was not and there was hell to pay. I never did find out exactly who did it but I blamed them all and they all suffered for it.

EMS even asked my girlfriend if I was capable of making it back. It was that bad. She somehow convinced them that I was. I was totally out of the loop when she was walking/dragging me back to the apartment with the help of some brothers. I remember nothing until I set up on the couch and wondered where the hell I was. These type drugs are not funny and are only used/abused by losers. The experience was terrifying and I feel for anyone who has ever been the victim of this type drug and experience. You are totally under the control of the drug and at the mercy of whomever or whatever.

This really bothers me. I just can't even imagine. This is another example of why both women and men need to be careful and smart. Not everything is preventable but some things are.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

In other words, you are talking about victim precipitation (which is NOT synonymous with victim blame) and victimology. Victimology is extensively studied as is offender motivation.

I guess... I don't know all the sociology jargon.

(You aren't saying "boys will be boys" or anything of that sort.)

No, but I think we need to be honest and admit that they will. Once we acknowledge this, then we as women can be better prepared to defend ourselves.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

I guess... I don't know all the sociology jargon.

Nevermind, I was actually giving your perspective more credit than was due. You are saying "boys will be boys." That isn't what victim precipitation and victimology are about.

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

No, but I think we need to be honest and admit that they will. Once we acknowledge this, then we as women can be better prepared to defend ourselves.

They won't if people don't act as though it is inevitable. It is all about socialization and what the aggregate allows. Therefore, I as a woman refuse to acknowledge that and am well prepared to defend myself without acknowledging that. I urge other women to be safe and well prepared without acknowledging that nonsense.

"Women protect your rep and guard your vaginas from those crazily unpredictable men who may be rapists!"

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Nevermind, I was actually giving your perspective more credit than was due. You are saying "boys will be boys." That isn't what victim precipitation and victimology are about.



They won't if people don't act as though it is inevitable. It is all about socialization and what the aggregate allows. Therefore, I as a woman refuse to acknowledge that and am well prepared to defend myself without acknowledging that. I urge other women to be safe and well prepared without acknowledging that nonsense.

"Women protect your rep and guard your vaginas from those crazily unpredictable men who may be rapists!"

OH NOES MEN ARE OUT TO RAPE US!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

OH NOES MEN ARE OUT TO RAPE US!

And there really is no way to insist upon "boys will be boys" without making the primary status of men that of rapist or potential rapits. "Boys will be boys" implies that males are going through life with their balls in their hands and oblivious to anything beyond their balls. As a result, they can intentionally or accidentally become offenders. I feel sorry for them. Awwwwwwwww. Poooor babies.

It's funny because sigmadiva said that Drolefille was making women helpless children who can't protect themselves but it's okay for men to be helpless children who can't control themselves. Women need to be the safe adults here, not the men. Ahhhhhhh...this takes me back to my very first post in this thread. It doesn't need to be about "helpless women" or "boys will be boys." Those are extremes on each end of the scale. Instead, the scale should be balanced where both men and women are conscious and accountable.

/redundant

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And there really is no way to insist upon "boys will be boys" without making the primary status of men that of rapist or potential rapits. "Boys will be boys" implies that males are going through life with their balls in their hands and oblivious to anything beyond their balls. As a result, they can intentionally or accidentally become offenders. I feel sorry for them. Awwwwwwwww. Poooor babies.

It's funny because sigmadiva said that Drolefille was making women helpless children who can't protect themselves but it's okay for men to be helpless children who can't control themselves. Women need to be the safe adults here, not the men. Ahhhhhhh...this takes me back to my very first post in this thread. It doesn't need to be about "helpless women" or "boys will be boys." Those are extremes on each end of the scale. Instead, the scale should be balanced where both men and women are conscious and accountable.

/redundant

What you said.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And there really is no way to insist upon "boys will be boys" without making the primary status of men that of rapist or potential rapits. "Boys will be boys" implies that males are going through life with their balls in their hands and oblivious to anything beyond their balls. As a result, they can intentionally or accidentally become offenders. I feel sorry for them. Awwwwwwwww. Poooor babies.

It's funny because sigmadiva said that Drolefille was making women helpless children who can't protect themselves but it's okay for men to be helpless children who can't control themselves. Women need to be the safe adults here, not the men. Ahhhhhhh...this takes me back to my very first post in this thread. It doesn't need to be about "helpless women" or "boys will be boys." Those are extremes on each end of the scale. Instead, the scale should be balanced where both men and women are conscious and accountable.

/redundant

It was this very "women as victims men, especially fraternity men, as lewd predators" that led to my college's crazy lawsuit and John Stossel coming to campus. Luckily, the PCU-type administrators are gone but I can see how it happens at other schools.

[33girl]

Strictly physically speaking, a man who becomes aroused and doesn't see it through to its conclusion IS going to be far more uncomfortable (for lack of a better word) than a woman who becomes aroused and doesn't see it through. That's simple biology. Young men do not always do a good job of using their brain instead of their hormones.

I honestly think there are a lot of nice, sweet, thoughtful, enlightened guys who end up acting in ways they normally wouldn't because the biological urges are so strong. It truly is impossible for a woman to understand how that feels.