vaccinate your kids, or else!!

[BigRedBeta]

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

An admittedly cursory search through abstracts on PubMed with the search term "Immunizations AND autism" yielded no studies in any medical journals which could establish a significant link between immunization status and autism spectrum disorders. Until a study can show that the increased incidence of autism isn't due to increased awareness, increased availability of early intervention services, and a broadening of diagnostic categories, the prudent course of action will continue to be the full course of vaccinations. Seriously, I've had parents come in literally begging for a diagnosis of autism so they can get special services. And yet their children weren't even borderline and acted completely appropriate. This is also not a case of pharmaceutical companies trying to make a profit. Vaccines are much cheaper than courses of treatments for any of the diseases that they prevent. That's the whole point - vaccines not only prevent death but are more cost-efficient than treating the actual disease. For example, the Gardasil vaccines which, are the most expensive vaccines I currently know of, run more than $300 for the sequence...that's A LOT cheaper than having to deal with treatment of cervical cancer! If vaccines weren't cheaper than effective treatments for a disease, it would make zero sense to give the vaccines.

If you're worried about the number of shots your child gets at one time - I can understand that a little better, however there are new combo vaccines being developed by the pharmaceutical companies at this point which I believe are in Phase III clinical trials with good results.

I can't stress it enough that vaccines are important. When sick children present with incomplete vaccination histories, it completely alters the way in which pediatricians think, and leads to decisions that cost families emotionally, physically, and financially due to having to prepare for the worst case scenario.

Finally, Mark Twain said

"Be careful what you read in health texts, you may die of a misprint".

I can't stress this enough when you are doing research on the internet. Please, please, please consider the source, not only for bias but also accuracy, completeness and trustworthiness.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

In my humble opinion as a parent, I believe it is well within my rights to choose to delay vaccinations if I feel it is in the best interest of my child(ren). My child (and any future ones we may have) will all be vaccinated appropriately by the time they enter kindergarten (most likely even by the time they enter preschool). I will not skip vaccinations (except varicella. I'm still undecided on that. There are benefits and risks to both the vaccination and catching chicken pox naturally.) I will not let my child have his shots if he is in any way sick, even if he just has a small cold (which is how we got delayed in the first place). But I will always catch up, even if it takes a few months or a year. Our family doctor (who serves as my son's pediatrician) is completely understanding and on board with this.

Again in my humble opinion as a parent, the best thing you can do as a future pediatrician is continue your research and allow yourself an open conversation with your patients parents. Talk with them and work with them on figuring out a schedule that works for them if they feel very strongly about vaccinations. Don't try and push your personal opinions on them. Almost every parent I know who has chosen to delay has done extensive research - reading books (both pro and con) and reports from the CDC - and come to their decision independently.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

Well, you're a medical student right now--every professional who's had to have additional education (ie, medicine, law, etc.) always says that they learned more during their first six months on the job than they did in school. I know I certainly did. So, between now and the end of your first year as a doctor, your opinion might change as you get more practical experience.

There was an article not too long ago that urged parents to trust their own instincts about their kids a little more instead of giving into doctors' opinions right away. I can't find the link, though.

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Well, you're a medical student right now--every professional who's had to have additional education (ie, medicine, law, etc.) always says that they learned more during their first six months on the job than they did in school. I know I certainly did. So, between now and the end of your first year as a doctor, your opinion might change as you get more practical experience.

There was an article not too long ago that urged parents to trust their own instincts about their kids a little more instead of giving into doctors' opinions right away. I can't find the link, though.

If I recall that article also said to take the doctor's opinions into account, as they do know more. To refuse to vaccinate and put other people's kids at risk is foolish, and I doubt those people took the doctors studies into account.

Vaccinations are not something that doctors change their mind about, more experience or not.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by kstar

If I recall that article also said to take the doctor's opinions into account, as they do know more. To refuse to vaccinate and put other people's kids at risk is foolish, and I doubt those people took the doctors studies into account.

Vaccinations are not something that doctors change their mind about, more experience or not.

Nowhere did I say that I was against vaccinations--obviously an educated, savvy parent like ISUKappa seems to be would probably have done enough research to make an informed decision. Doctors may not change their minds about vaccinations--but there's a huge gap between being a "medical student" and being an actual physicia, isn't there?

RE: chicken pox vaccinations, I WISH I would have gotten it, or at least the damned pox in the first place. My mother was creeped out by the idea of my sister and I getting it (we stayed at home with her, so it was easy to limit our exposure to pox-ridden kids), and my sister and I got it at 21 and 15, respectively, and we were both really really sick. I was in Driver's Ed that semester and missed two weeks of school; it also blew my class rank.

[AKA_Monet]

Not to belittle anyone's experience, but MayoClinic says that most people think their children are getting autism after the MMR (mumps-measles-rubella) vaccination... They also say there is no clinical proof of that occurring.

But I have an idea.

This vaccine use to be a heat-killed virus vaccination. Now it is the double stranded DNA... It works "sufficiently". There is an additive, such as BSA (bovine serum albumin) or gelatin (from pork) or ovalbumin (from chicken) to mount an immune response from the human body.

I think these short nucleotides are serving a strong primers or DNA-isomers that could cause a DNA adduction attack that activates several gene processes involving cancer. Since there is no cancer, about 75% of the DNA vaccine is incorporated into the macrophage or APC before presentation to the T-cell. Many children do not have fully matured T-cells through thymic education. Ultimately, the T-cells incorporate the DNA vaccine and tell the B-cells what to fight against when making antibodies.

HOWEVER!!! It is the WAY we are making the DNA--most DNA in cells is chemically modified, but a variety of processes, then they become nascent DNA--unmodified for variety of reasons. However, in the lab, we do not modify the DNA... Heat killing the virus would disable the viral parts of the virus, but not remove it chemical modification... In this case, it probably is methylated.

The first thing one learns in DNA isolation and purification is that DNA is kept nascent. Occasionally, we would be unable to cut DNA with molecular scissors, restriction enzymes, but usually, most DNA from the current amplification bacteria we use ONLY generates nascent DNA.

I am only speculating, but this may be the first evidence of epigenetic malformation resulting from nascent DNA. The DNA must be modified for an effective vaccination...

Because, there are various forms of autism. It does not have gross anatomical pathology as measured by MRI or other mechanisms. Some young people are fully functional as best as they could be. And I have heard cases of young people becoming adults who have minimal symptoms of autism. It may very well be a full epigenetic affect and they way it appears on PubMed, that it may occur in the auricle and proximal cortical regions in the brain... DNA in the brain is often either RNA from rapid protein generation or modified for quick regulation...

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

He's just lucky his daddy's a Sinfonian.

I remember when I was studying Music Therapy - autism was a HUGE part of our clientel. I had two autistic kids as clients, and it took them 4 weeks to learn my name, but 3 months later, I had them singing "Jamaican Farewell" and playing the ukelelis with it.

I did some research, and it sounds like the hair cells may be affected. If I were to do a clinical trial, and received an IRB and recruited a significant number, I w ould hope I could find variations via array technology variations pre and post vaccination.

[AKA_Monet]

Here are new articles on autism:

Association between Microdeletion and Microduplication at 16p11.2 and Autism

Autism's Cause May Reside in Abnormalities at the Synapse

Just a friendly neighborhood examination of scientific articles. If you need assistance on what it is saying, PM me!

[AKA_Monet]

Of course it happens in my former resident city...

Public Health Risk Seen as Parents Reject Vaccines

SAN DIEGO — In a highly unusual outbreak of measles here last month, 12 children fell ill; nine of them had not been inoculated against the virus because their parents objected, and the other three were too young to receive vaccines.

The parents who objected to their children being inoculated are among a small but growing number of vaccine skeptics in California and other states who take advantage of exemptions to laws requiring vaccinations for school-age children.

The exemptions have been growing since the early 1990s at a rate that many epidemiologists, public health officials and physicians find disturbing.

Children who are not vaccinated are unnecessarily susceptible to serious illnesses, they say, but also present a danger to children who have had their shots — the measles vaccine, for instance, is only 95 percent effective — and to those children too young to receive certain vaccines.

Measles, almost wholly eradicated in the United States through vaccines, can cause pneumonia and brain swelling, which in rare cases can lead to death. The measles outbreak here alarmed public health officials, sickened babies and sent one child to the hospital.

Every state allows medical exemptions, and most permit exemptions based on religious practices. But an increasing number of the vaccine skeptics belong to a different group — those who object to the inoculations because of their personal beliefs, often related to an unproven notion that vaccines are linked to autism and other disorders.

Twenty states, including California, Ohio and Texas, allow some kind of personal exemption, according to a tally by the Johns Hopkins University.

“I refuse to sacrifice my children for the greater good,” said Sybil Carlson, whose 6-year-old son goes to school with several of the children hit by the measles outbreak here. The boy is immunized against some diseases but not measles, Ms. Carlson said, while his 3-year-old brother has had just one shot, protecting him against meningitis.

“When I began to read about vaccines and how they work,” she said, “I saw medical studies, not given to use by the mainstream media, connecting them with neurological disorders, asthma and immunology.”

Ms. Carlson said she understood what was at stake. “I cannot deny that my child can put someone else at risk,” she said.

Interesting...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

An admittedly cursory search through abstracts on PubMed with the search term "Immunizations AND autism" yielded no studies in any medical journals which could establish a significant link between immunization status and autism spectrum disorders. Until a study can show that the increased incidence of autism isn't due to increased awareness, increased availability of early intervention services, and a broadening of diagnostic categories, the prudent course of action will continue to be the full course of vaccinations.

I admire your statements and your courage to present your opinion here. I also think we seriously need to examine how we are vaccinating our children from a Public Health perspective.

Like I said, they no longer even make the polio or smallpox vaccines with heat killed viruses containing adjuvants. Most vaccines are nucleic acid based. That doesn't mean we do not follow schedules, that just means we re-examine conventional wisdom with newer technology and better markers.

Autism is a nasty disorder and there is very little understanding as to why there are increased diagnoses of it. Vaccines may be one factor, mythological or not. But Measles, mumps, rubella, diptheria-pertussis and tuberculosis is NOT a myth...

Ultimately, the qualified professionals will be making their best diagnosis based on recommendations by the government and various societies and it is going to be tough.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

MysticCat,

Does your son have any "odd outcomes to illnesses" that you would normally write-off because he is a kid? For example, you said allergies and post nasal drip? How often does he gets these sniffles and to what, specifically, i.e. dust, molds, dog hair or odd things like "fresh tomatoes" or "celery"?

I have not read or studied much research on odd allergies, but I am seeing more children having these kinds of allergies.

None that I can think of -- the sniffles are usually seasonal, and when others in the house have them as well. But again, you've given me something to keep an eye out for.

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

No offense to anyone here, but in my humble, yet growing medical opinion, there is (other than religious) ABSOLUTELY no reason not to vaccinate your children on schedule. I say this as current medical student and future pediatrician.

No offense to a current medical student and future pediatrician, but you'll find that many parents, due to their less-than-positive interactions with medical professionals, are convinced either that the research hasn't caught up yet or that medical professionals have tunnel vision and are unwilling to (I can't believe I'm about to say this) think outside the box. Even I feel that way at times, and you can't find many people more willing to go along with conventional medical practice than me.

Too many parents with kids on the spectrum (why anyone would want that for their kids is beyond me) have dealt with pediatricians who don't really understand what autism is to begin with. I can tell you that many of these parents have not found the medical profession to be helpful in understanding and helping their children. (That is not my experience, but it is the experience of many other parents.)

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

Again in my humble opinion as a parent, the best thing you can do as a future pediatrician is continue your research and allow yourself an open conversation with your patients parents.

I agree completely. The only thing I would add is to keep up with the research, which is always evolving, and don't write off what the parents are telling you they are experiencing and seeing when it doesn't match up with the research.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

None that I can think of -- the sniffles are usually seasonal, and when others in the house have them as well. But again, you've given me something to keep an eye out for.

They have to be extremely ODD kinds of allergies or a complete inability to "throw off" the "sniffles" outside of anyone else or something like being 16 years old and still having 103+ degree temperatures and no "confounders", like "hemorrhagic fever" or "yellow/dengue fever"--which is a very real possibility to come back into the US because of global warming...

If your son is mildly autistic, he MIGHT grow out of it. The issue is autism does not have OVERT slide pathology. So, it barely can be detected by MRI even with "bubble" technology... As you are aware, it is only by psych eval tests and learning tests.

One thing I do remember from my training is how music "gets" to their thought processes... So, when you all do have difficulty, start singing and playing music.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

One thing I do remember from my training is how music "gets" to their thought processes... So, when you all do have difficulty, start singing and playing music.

He's just lucky his daddy's a Sinfonian.

I remember when I was studying Music Therapy - autism was a HUGE part of our clientel. I had two autistic kids as clients, and it took them 4 weeks to learn my name, but 3 months later, I had them singing "Jamaican Farewell" and playing the ukelelis with it.