"The Dreaded Phone Call"

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by annabella

I'm going to agree with most of what's been said. And the phone calls cannot be pleasant to make- our advisor handles them.

But I think what everyone's forgetting is a practicality issue- often, there just isn't enough TIME. Think about it, in a large recruitment (one large enough where legacy cuts become an issue) making invite lists is a task that will run well into the latenight, even the morning, depending on the chapter and how they do things. It's impossible to know whether or not that alumnae will want to receive a phone call at 2 am. And at my school, girls go meet with their Pi Chis and accept/decline their invites fairly early in the morning, then have a couple hours before the parties start.

When we have to make "the call," we usually make it the next morning. But in that scenario, it's problematic because the PNM has already received her invites, and the alumna may or may not have gotten "the call," from her legacy.

I understand what you are saying from a practical standpoint, but the decision is possibly really important to the member who has the legacy going through rush. If the group outlines that she be called, then the chapter needs to make it a priority.

As far as I know, there's no reason you'd have to be voting on the legacies at 2 AM even if you are still in MS. You could decide on those first and then a designated alumna who didn't need to be at MS could start calling.

Basically, there are ways of addressing the practical problems and still honoring the relationship of the alumna member to the group IF your group has the policy.

Or at the next opportunity, those chapters than can't handle calling should try to change their policies. But it's not right to have a policy that the member would expect to be followed, and then to have her find out from a heartbroken legacy that she had been cut and for her to never get the phone call.

(Although I've personally expressed in another thread how it would make me mad to have a legacy cut, I don't think anyone is assuming legacies have an automatic "right" to join a chapter. I think all of us understand that the legacy has to be a well qualified recruitment guest in her own right, but when she appears to be well qualified (good grades, leadership, service, cute, etc), and the chapter is going to release her, at the least the chapter could follow its own GLO polices in notifying the member.)

[PeppyGPhiB]

I still like my sorority's policy of allowing the PNM to choose whether/when to notify her mother/grandmother/sis. Recruitment is about the PNM and the collegiate members, NOT the alumnae. That may be hard for some women to believe, but it IS...otherwise ALUMNAE would participate in recruitment, too. I think the PNM should have a right to privacy and to be the first to know. If I was a PNM cut by my mother's house during recruitment, I would be FURIOUS if I got a call from her telling me that or if I knew she knew before I did.

College students are adults. That's why most of them move out of the house or move far away when they go to college. Recruitment should be an experience they can go through without their mommies fighting the fights for them, or demanding to know things about their life at college before they even do.

[jwright25]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I still like my sorority's policy of allowing the PNM to choose whether/when to notify her mother/grandmother/sis. Recruitment is about the PNM and the collegiate members, NOT the alumnae. That may be hard for some women to believe, but it IS...otherwise ALUMNAE would participate in recruitment, too. I think the PNM should have a right to privacy and to be the first to know. If I was a PNM cut by my mother's house during recruitment, I would be FURIOUS if I got a call from her telling me that or if I knew she knew before I did.

College students are adults. That's why most of them move out of the house or move far away when they go to college. Recruitment should be an experience they can go through without their mommies fighting the fights for them, or demanding to know things about their life at college before they even do.

YES YES YES YES YES! You took the words right out of my head.

[CarolinaCutie]

Phi Mu changed their policy in 2005; we used to notify alumnae if their legacies were cut, but we do not anymore due to privacy issues. This fact was publicized in our recent Aglaia, in an effort to alert alums of this policy so they won't be disappointed by not receiving that call.

I can see both sides of this discussion though. I completely agree with PeppyGPhiB but then I also place myself in the situation of the mother whose sorority has dropped her daughter.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by CarolinaCutie

Phi Mu changed their policy in 2005; we used to notify alumnae if their legacies were cut, but we do not anymore due to privacy issues. This fact was publicized in our recent Aglaia, in an effort to alert alums of this policy so they won't be disappointed by not receiving that call.

I can see both sides of this discussion though. I completely agree with PeppyGPhiB but then I also place myself in the situation of the mother whose sorority has dropped her daughter.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if more groups went to this policy, and if they do, that would be fine. But if you have the policy, you can't decide just that it's too much bother to honor it.

Some of us are looking at it from perspective that the group needs to reach out to the alumna to show her respect as a member, and another group who thinks that the call is all about the PNM. In my opinion it's not about the PNM that much at all; it's most certainly not an opportunity for the member to negotiate about MS.

No one is saying that the chapter has to defer to the alumnae in terms of who they choose as members, so I find it hard to understand why some of you think that calling an alumna to tell her about an outcome places her on the same status as the PNM, especially at PNM that the chapter CUT. (She'll never even be a member of the group, period.)

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Recruitment is about the PNM and the collegiate members, NOT the alumnae. That may be hard for some women to believe, but it IS...otherwise ALUMNAE would participate in recruitment, too. I think the PNM should have a right to privacy and to be the first to know. If I was a PNM cut by my mother's house during recruitment, I would be FURIOUS if I got a call from her telling me that or if I knew she knew before I did.

College students are adults. That's why most of them move out of the house or move far away when they go to college. Recruitment should be an experience they can go through without their mommies fighting the fights for them, or demanding to know things about their life at college before they even do.

How does calling the alumna after the decision is made equate with recruitment being more about the alumna than about the actives and PNMs?

You're following up on the legacy notification that the alumna sent to the chapter, not breaking down the PNM's recruitment results generally.

ETA: I'm not trying to be antagonistic. If I were a member of your group, I suspect the not-calling policy would seem as natural as breathing. But it's seems like some people seem to think that call means a lot more than it does. It's just a courtesy that the chapter as representatives of the GLO shows the alumna member.

[SWTXBelle]

www.greekstation.com has very nice cards to sent to alumnae to thank them for sending a recommendation, including one with a space for listing where the pnm ended up pledging.

[SoCalGirl]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

That may be hard for some women to believe, but it IS...otherwise ALUMNAE would participate in recruitment, too.

Alum do participate in recruitment. Just because they don't have a vote doesn't mean they're not important. They're recruitment advisors and supervisors. They're in the kitchen prepping the food. They're writing the recs that are vital at many schools.

If a sorority has a policy of not calling then the alumna should be aware of it and it's all a moot point. For the sororities that still have the policy of calling I think it's vital to make an attempt to contact the alumna. That being said, if I were to get a call before 7am I would not be happy. Even if they were calling to say they did bid my hypothetical legacy. Calls in the middle of the night are supposed to be saved for deaths and births. Failing to recieve a bid is neither.

When I was in school we usually weren't starting MS until after 11pm and were very lucky if we got to leave by 1am. The President, VPM, Recruitment Advisor, and/or Recruitment Supervisor then had a few more hours ahead of them. I recall one year when the lists were due by 3am our VPM showed up early but she was told that the chapters had to be added in alphabetical order. She had to wait for the seven other sororities lists to arrive an be entered before ours could be done! It was insane that happened and I hope it's no longer an issue.

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

How does calling the alumna after the decision is made equate with recruitment being more about the alumna than about the actives and PNMs?

You're following up on the legacy notification that the alumna sent to the chapter, not breaking down the PNM's recruitment results generally.

I don't personally think I'd want SK to move to a policy of not calling alumna but I think that there should be some flexibility in the policy. An alumna should be required, before recruitment begins, to indicate if and how she'd like to be contacted. Some women would want the calls while others wouldn't. Some would want to know ASAP wehere as other can wait till after 7am. Some would be happy with an email.

These calls are meant to be "We regret to inform you that your legacy has been released from XYZ." Not, "We voted and only 30% thought she should get a bid because the others thought she was a tramp for making out with four guys during the first week of school." No reasons or results. Simply tell the alumna that the legacy didn't get a bid and then do what you need to do to get off the phone.

[UGAalum94]

SoCalGirl,

I think that maybe the legacy introduction forms could ask about type of notification the alumna would prefer. That would also remind her than she can't expect the PNM to get a bid just because she was member.

It should be regarded as a courtesy by the alumna too, and she shouldn't make it a more unpleasant than it has to be. There are very few objective aspects to MS, and she's never going to get a truly satisfying explanation, so everyone should recognize that's not what the call is about. It's a courtesy; it spares the PNM from having to break the news if it is a case where she is going to feel that she let the member down, but it's not an extension of MS.

I got myself into an unpleasant situation in another thread asking about Gamma Phi's policy, but I really do think there are reasons why other GLOs should consider moving towards it. First among them is the idea that many chapters don't seem to be honoring it anyway. And that's a double whammy. The alumna thinks no call is good news; the pnm gets cut. The alumna may be disappointed she got cut, but even if she wasn't concerned about the cut, she's probably kind of miffed that the GLO policy wasn't followed. (And if the PNM really wanted the chapter, the alumna is now upset about two things: her legacy's hurt feelings, and the chapter's cavalier attitude about GLO policy.)

[33girl]

I think sorority members should be notified if their legacy is dropped. The question is WHEN.

My mom wasn't in a sorority, but I thought, what if she had been and been grooming me to pledge that group for 18 years - and they dropped me the second day? Everyone's mom is different, but I have the feeling I would have been so busy consoling my mom that life would go on that the 6 other invites I got wouldn't have meant jack to me. Or to her. I would probably drop out of rush rather than have to deal with that and miss what could have been a great experience.

Then of course, you have another side of the coin - the rushee can't stand the legacy chapter and doesn't want to disappoint her mom by telling her "hey Mom, these girls are total jerks" and instead of telling her mom she cut them, tells Mom the sorority dropped her.

It seems like parents have so much more invested in their kids nowadays - emotionally and $wise and timewise - that the thought of having to tell them anything negative is enough to cast a pall on all of rush week.

[jwright25]

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opinions on this issue, because it is one that I have had to deal with and am sure to deal with many times again. My organization does not have a policy requiring chapters to call or send a letter or anything. And I like it that way. I am not a fan of the phone call, for several reasons:

1. As stated earlier in the thread, the PNM is an adult. The decision to participate in recruitment was hers to make alone, and she can legally do it without parental consent. Additionally, some PNMs might not want to admit that they have been released and would prefer to say or act like the decision was hers. That's her business. Not Mom's. There are privacy laws preventing Universities from divulging information to parents. Even though our sororities do not receive federal funds and are not always subject to the same laws, perhaps we should consider them as a guideline.

2. Even though several of you have commented that it SHOULD be this way, it will be the very rare phone call that Mom says, "OKTHXBYE." More likely the advisor or President will get questions about "why" and questions about whether or not it can be reversed and threats to call Executive Office. Stress that they don't need during recruitment. Questions that they can't answer because they are about MS.

3. While I believe that alumnae are necessary and valuable assets to our organizations (I'm one), I do not believe that they are entitled to know privileged membership selection information. Who is invited to parties or who is not is privileged membership selection information.

4. The educated alumna will not only encourage her daughter to make her own decisions and join the sorority that is right for her, she will also understand that perhaps her daughter is not right for her sorority. There is a reason that our organizations (well, mine at least) do not allow alumnae to participate in membership selection. Mine does not even allow alumnae to ATTEND MS unless they are an advisor or international officer. Alumnae have the privilege of recommending members, but they do not have the privilege of selecting them. So why should they have the privilege of know who was NOT selected?

NOTE: When an organization has a policy in place that requires the phone call, I believe that it should be made. In no way would I suggest that chapters go against an inter/national policy. I am debating the practice in general, not whether or not chapters should adhere to rules.

I am curious to hear a reason for the notification beyond "respect the alumna." Why is it necessary to hear it from the chapter (if you can't hear the reason why) as opposed to hearing it from the PNM?

[honeychile]

33girl, my chapter was on both sides of that coin when I was in school: a legacy who we couldn't stand, and one that didn't like us. We weren't permitted to drop the one, as she was a 5-generation legacy and those orders came from EO. The other, thankfully, dropped us before we had a problem. The 5-generation legacy simply did not want to be in ANY sorority; she got initiated at Convention, then transferred to a school without a Greek system. We truly did feel sorry for her, once we heard the whole story, but that stands out as the roughest Rush we ever did - and I was Membership Information Chairman at the time!

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

I think that maybe the legacy introduction forms could ask about type of notification the alumna would prefer. That would also remind her than she can't expect the PNM to get a bid just because she was member.

It should be regarded as a courtesy by the alumna too, and she shouldn't make is an more unpleasant than it has to be. There are very few objective aspects to MS, and she's never going to get a truly satisfying explanation, so everyone should recognize that's not what the call is about. It's a courtesy; it spares the PNM from having to break the news if it is a case where she is going to feel that she let the member down, but it's not an extension of MS.

I think this is a great idea! That way, even before R starts, the PNM will be ever so aware that R is a two-way street, and she and her mother/sister/grandmother can make the choice together. I think it would save a LOT of hurt feelings.

So many legacies are legacies to more than one GLO anymore, that adding another chapter could give double legacies two chances at a legacy house. Yes, the quota would be smaller (maybe 75 instead of 90?), but in this particular situation, R would run more smoothly.

I keep hearing about R with 150 legacies showing up at houses when Quota is 100, and you just have to know that there are going to be at least 20 heartbreaks in that scenario. And heartbreaks during R can too easily translate into anti-greek feelings - that's why I'm so concerned with the whole legacy situation.

The second part of this is the legacy who's dropped just prior to Pref. Unless this legacy has been arrested for being a member of Charles Manson's band, there is simply NO EXCUSE for doing this. Too often, the other GLOs have figured, "Oh, she's going XYZ, why waste an invitation on her?" and so a legacy - the PNM who is supposed to get a step up in R is left high and dry. If I never hear of another time that this happens, it will be too soon!

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

As far as I know, there's no reason you'd have to be voting on the legacies at 2 AM even if you are still in MS. You could decide on those first and then a designated alumna who didn't need to be at MS could start calling.

That might or might not work, depending on how the sorority does MS - you might not know until the end of MS who will be invited and who will be cut. To make up a silly example, let's say that according to the RFM, you can invite 150 women, and you choose by writing down the names of all the PNMs at your last round and throwing them into a hat and picking out 150 names. Until the 150th name is drawn, you won't know if Suzie Legacy is getting invited.

Anyway, personally, I don't think I'd be sick with worry about my hypothetical future daughter getting cut from AEPhi. Just because AEPhi was right for me doesn't mean it would be right for her, and I'd want her to follow her own heart.

[dgdramadawg]

I think the reason I'd be upset not to get a call is because I have always understood the policy to be that I would receive a call if my legacy was cut. It's not that I necessarily think that my sister is perfect for DG, for example, but I would be upset not to get a call if she was dropped by a DG chapter because my understanding is that I would get one in the event of that.

I think that's where a lot of women are coming from when it comes to saying they'd expect a call... not that they'd necessarily expect their sister/daughter to be bidded, just that they'd expect their sorority to follow policy if policy dictated a call.