Hazing: University of Colorado: Alpha Phi

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No, we don't, but if I go to the gym with a new member and she is having trouble on the treadmill, and I yell "C'mon Suzie! Don't quit now! Finish that f*cking workout!", am I hazing her? Well, I'm encouraging her to do something she doesn't want to do, aren't I?

One's illegal, one's not.

One's probably specifically prohibited by hazing regulations/laws/restrictions whatever, one's probably not.

If you told her/ gave her the impression/ pressured her with the idea that she wouldn't be accepted by the sorority if she didn't finish running. And there were 10 actives standing around her saying the same thing. Yeah at some point you're hazing. Your assumption is that she wanted to drink and then lied about it later. Big assumption.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

One's illegal, one's not.

One's probably specifically prohibited by hazing regulations/laws/restrictions whatever, one's probably not.

If you told her/ gave her the impression/ pressured her with the idea that she wouldn't be accepted by the sorority if she didn't finish running. And there were 10 actives standing around her saying the same thing. Yeah at some point you're hazing. Your assumption is that she wanted to drink and then lied about it later. Big assumption.

What's illegal? Was she underage? If so, she probably shouldn't have had alcohol in her dorm in the first place.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I think that our schools are different, and that's the issue here. I know there are parties where women are taken off campus as a group after sorority bid day but before fraternity bid day, and the point is to have alcohol, and it always happens off campus. Women go, even if they don't drink, because they want to be part of the group and everyone else is going. Trying to get home is difficult because you are new on campus, even if you're a sober driver, and so there's a pressure to be with the group even if one isn't drinking. There are very few 17 & 18 year old women who can say they don't want to drink or go, and I find it ridiculous that we have to do this right off the bat. (As a complete aside I don't think we should be "teach people to drink" because there are a lot of opportunities for experimentation and we should work on helping people adjust and feel comfortable, and I'm a huge fan of delayed recruitment and not living in the chapter facility right off the bat.)

The norm here is for a fraternity to have a camping trip for their bid day and women are going to this, off campus. New members are leaving campus, there's alcohol involved, and I wish we weren't creating/supporting risk management situations for people who haven't attended class yet and we are their whole world. Not to say things can't happen at an on campus party, but at least women could walk home and be able to get away from a situation that they don't want to be in. I know there are some men who are new members who are uncomfortable joining and right away girls and booze but they talk about it less because of their own gender/fraternity culture.

Maybe I'm an old lady and I bought into the "values based" buzz word, but I really wish we'd look at our behavior and actions and have a critical eye and own our contributions to how we're viewed and what our purpose as organizations are, and how it conflicts and mimics college and young culture as a whole.

True, because our recruitment is usually a couple of weeks after school starts, and the campus atmosphere isn't Greek/party oriented. You're far less likely to feel like you have to drink to fit in from the start due to the student population itself. And when I said I'm glad my chapter had a mix and didn't end up with a drinking-focus, I didn't mean to imply that isn't the case for the other chapters on campus, because it is. Generally speaking we all have friends across organizations and they all seem to have that same mix. We also have a chance to make friends prior to recruitment and experience a mix of social activities. I'm sure it would be very different if recruitment was held before school and freshmen hadn't yet been exposed to what other social activities the campus had to offer. It's also a small campus and the only two fraternity houses are within easy walking distance of the dorms, as are the only two bars. I do recognize that it's a more laid back atmosphere for these reasons and not just due to the Greeks themselves.

But even on campuses where recruitment is before school and the student population is party oriented if just a few sisters in the chapter that didn't drink (or just chose not to that night) were there to hang out with the new girls, they could see that they can still have fun. And everyone can get home safe.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

One's illegal, one's not.

One's probably specifically prohibited by hazing regulations/laws/restrictions whatever, one's probably not.

If you told her/ gave her the impression/ pressured her with the idea that she wouldn't be accepted by the sorority if she didn't finish running. And there were 10 actives standing around her saying the same thing. Yeah at some point you're hazing. Your assumption is that she wanted to drink and then lied about it later. Big assumption.

This^. It's a very big assumption, and like many have pointed out, freshmen who are new on campus and have only this one group of friends aren't likely to extract themselves from that situation without giving in. And I don't blame them.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

No, we don't, but if I go to the gym with a new member and she is having trouble on the treadmill, and I yell "C'mon Suzie! Don't quit now! Finish that f*cking workout!", am I hazing her? Well, I'm encouraging her to do something she doesn't want to do, aren't I?

She didn't hop her ass onto the treadmill because she's a NM. Susie did it because Susie wants to be in shape; and you are giving positive reinforcement.

If you told her she better finish on the treadmill or her NM status will be harmed, that is hazing. If you increased the speed from 5.0 on the jog to 7.0 on the run against her consent and told her she better finish or her life as an XYZ will be shitty, that is hazing.

ETA: Ditto to what Drolefille said.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

She didn't hop her ass onto the treadmill because she's a NM. Susie did it because Susie wants to be in shape; and you are giving positive reinforcement.

If you told her she better finish on the treadmill or her NM status will be harmed, that is hazing. If you increased the speed from 5.0 on the jog to 7.0 on the run against her consent and told her she better finish or her life as an XYZ will be shitty, that is hazing.

And I am saying, from the details presented in the article, there is no evidence that the members did anything more than say "c'mon, let's all do a shot!"

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

And I am saying, from the details presented in the article, there is no evidence that the members did anything more than say "c'mon, let's all do a shot!"

"C'mon let's all do a shot" can feel like "you better do a shot" when we're talking about teenagers (they are still teenagers, right?).

Lesson learned: Stop with the underaged (binge) drinking OR be willing to face whatever consequences you are getting yourself into.

[Alumiyum]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

And I am saying, from the details presented in the article, there is no evidence that the members did anything more than say "c'mon, let's all do a shot!"

It's unlikely that would cause such a big stink. But you are reaching to assume the girl is just a bitch who regretted drinking. There are ways to inappropriately pressure someone without going drill sergeant on them.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"C'mon let's all do a shot" can feel like "you better do a shot" when we're talking about teenagers (they are still teenagers, right?).

Lesson learned: Stop with the underaged (binge) drinking OR be willing to face whatever consequences you are getting yourself into.

Well said.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

"C'mon let's all do a shot" can feel like "you better do a shot" when we're talking about teenagers (they are still teenagers, right?).

Lesson learned: Stop with the underaged (binge) drinking OR be willing to face whatever consequences you are getting yourself into.

Is it confirmed that the NM was underage? I didn't see that in the article I read.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

Is it confirmed that the NM was underage? I didn't see that in the article I read.

"The University of Colorado at Boulder is investigating a possible hazing incident involving a sorority and a group of freshman girls."

From the first article posted. It is a 99% chance that she's under 21 considering that she's most likely a traditional first year student and this is an NPC sorority.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

And I am saying, from the details presented in the article, there is no evidence that the members did anything more than say "c'mon, let's all do a shot!"

Nor is there evidence that the new member lied to cover her own ass.

I'm pointing out that you're making that assumption here. All we know is that hazing was reported. Anything else is all about what you're bringing to the table.