This Just in: 88 year old white supremacist opens fire @ Holocaust museum

[paulam]

Originally Posted by tri deezy

Yeesh... I also saw that he was president of his fraternity. Perhaps we should leave out which frat it is... Not the best alum. As a Jewish girl living about two miles from the Holocaust Museum, I'm stunned and angry. I'm so sad about the guard, but more than sad, I'm angry.

What a terrible waste of a life. This man could have dedicated himself to improving the world peacefully but instead chose a path the lead to his ultimate failure.

I feel certain that every synagogue will be saying a special prayer tonight, the beginning of the Sabbath, for Mr. Johns, the Security Guard who gave his life to protect others. May he rest in peace and may his family find comfort knowing what a fine man he was.

Since Day 1, there has been rampant anti-semitism in the world. This is the year 5770 on the Jewish calendar. There are only 14,000,000 Jews worldwide (yes, fourteen million...less than the population of the state of Texas). What are these people so afraid of? What do they think this small group of mostly decent professionals (with more than a few bad apples...no group is perfect) can do to them?

Prejudice is based on ignorance and fear. Many of those who spout this hatred may not even know any Jews or blacks. Why not open a dialogue if you are one of them? You may be surprised.

I can't help but wonder what that famous Holocaust denier, Mel Gibson is feeling now. He is procreating again. I do not believe G-d is finished with him yet...not by a long shot. Gibson now has no place to go with his hatred. Innocent children were in the Museum yesterday. Had not the other guards reacted as they were trained to do, those children could have been victims as well.

All decent people of any faith can do is to keep the lines of communication open and teach the next generation to respect others who believe differently than they do.

My $.02!

Paula M
Sigma Delta Tau
Patrae Multi Spes Una
One Hope of Many People

[DGTess]

Deleted. Found better information.

[VandalSquirrel]

Not that I doubted their existence, but the only Holocaust deniers I had ever met weren't people alive when it happened, let alone someone who served in WWII. How messed up is one's mind and reality to be alive when it happened and still deny it happened?

Same day this shooting happened there were fliers placed by a hate group all over a neighborhood in North Idaho. I have a hard time believing it is not a coincidence and there wasn't any "chatter" that something was going to happen. I wish these people would realize they aren't welcome here and we're tired of their rhetoric and hate making normal people look bad.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by paulam

I can't help but wonder what that famous Holocaust denier, Mel Gibson is feeling now. He is procreating again. I do not believe G-d is finished with him yet...not by a long shot. Gibson now has no place to go with his hatred.

Wha...?

Although Mel Gibson has been caught saying anti-Semitic things, he has confirmed that he does believe that the Holocaust happened. His father is a known Holocaust denier, but Mel Gibson has refuted his father's belief in that regard.

Besides, what does Mel Gibson or the fact that he has a kid on the way have anything to do with what happened in DC? This is vaguely hysterical, and makes it hard for the things you say that actually make sense to be taken seriously.

[paulam]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Wha...?

Although Mel Gibson has been caught saying anti-Semitic things, he has confirmed that he does believe that the Holocaust happened. His father is a known Holocaust denier, but Mel Gibson has refuted his father's belief in that regard.

Besides, what does Mel Gibson or the fact that he has a kid on the way have anything to do with what happened in DC? This is vaguely hysterical, and makes it hard for the things you say that actually make sense to be taken seriously.

I respect your opinion but the last I read, Gibson had told a reporter that..."my father has never lied to me." This was after the reporter had asked specifically if he were a Holocaust denier like his father.

You cannot imagine the damage this man did to the Jewish community, especially to those of us who lost relatives in the Holocaust. It is not something that can be glossed over...the pain and hurt will always be with us. If that sounds hysterical, well so be it. Our grandparents were shot to death by the Nazi's at Babi Yar with thousands of others and their bodies were thrown into a ditch to rot. They had planned to emigrate, but it was too late for them.

I can only ask you to respect my opinion.

Paula M
Sigma Delta Tau
Patrae Multi Spes Una
One Hope of Many People

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by paulam

I respect your opinion but the last I read, Gibson had told a reporter that..."my father has never lied to me." This was after the reporter had asked specifically if he were a Holocaust denier like his father.

You cannot imagine the damage this man did to the Jewish community, especially to those of us who lost relatives in the Holocaust. It is not something that can be glossed over...the pain and hurt will always be with us. If that sounds hysterical, well so be it. Our grandparents were shot to death by the Nazi's at Babi Yar with thousands of others and their bodies were thrown into a ditch to rot. They had planned to emigrate, but it was too late for them.

I can only ask you to respect my opinion.

Paula M
Sigma Delta Tau
Patrae Multi Spes Una
One Hope of Many People

I'm sorry for what happened to your grandparents, but it doesn't make your Mel Gibson comment any more germane to the subject at hand.

Also...just a side note, but you shouldn't presume what people can and "cannot" imagine. You don't know Munchkin (or I would assume most of the people on this site), so you should be careful with your presumptions.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by paulam

You cannot imagine the damage this man did to the Jewish community, especially to those of us who lost relatives in the Holocaust.

As with every opinion and perceived prejudice against a group of people, many Jews do not find Mel Gibson and his comments salient.

Many Jews dislike him but crediting him with damage is potentially giving a lot more credit (and attention) than is due.

[paulam]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I'm sorry for what happened to your grandparents, but it doesn't make your Mel Gibson comment any more germane to the subject at hand.

Also...just a side note, but you shouldn't presume what people can and "cannot" imagine. You don't know Munchkin (or I would assume most of the people on this site), so you should be careful with your presumptions.

You are right about that. I normally am a very rational person but did make a presumption here. I am moving on. There are more positive issues to discuss.

Paula M
Sigma Delta Tau
Patrae Multi Spes Una
One Hope of Many People

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

When we went to the museum back in 1997, there was a bomb threat and we had to evacuate.

I guess the FBI was right when they predicted that right-wing extremism would increase. Between the election, the declining economy, and the increasing legalization of gay marriage, their heads are just exploding, I'm sure.

What was the baseline level of right-wing extremism that we're comparing it to?

I think we've had a couple of really high profile cases here lately, certainly, but compared to the early 1990s with Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City. . .

I think the FBI is correct that the situation needs to be monitored because no level of extremist violence should be regarded as normal, but unless we really know what the data is, it's hard to make comparisons. So often we're at the mercy of the media in our perceptions of increases and decreases.

ETA: This is kind of a random question but do we not hear as much lately about left wing extremism because of political shifts and leftist being happier or because there's actually less of it? I don't mean that a crazy balance of "hey, there's been a holocaust attack we're reporting, let's find a terrorist animal rights story to balance it out" should be attempted, but are we actually experiencing fewer destructive acts by extreme, extreme left wingers because capitalism is looking so weak already? Does this stuff really swing back and forth opposition to where the locus of political power is on the spectrum?

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

What was the baseline level of right-wing extremism that we're comparing it to?

I think we've had a couple of really high profile cases here lately, certainly, but compared to the early 1990s with Waco, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City. . .

I think the FBI is correct that the situation needs to be monitored because no level of extremist violence should be regarded as normal, but unless we really know what the data is, it's hard to make comparisons. So often we're at the mercy of the media in our perceptions of increases and decreases.

ETA: This is kind of a random question but do we not hear as much lately about left wing extremism because of political shifts and leftist being happier or because there's actually less of it? I don't mean that a crazy balance of "hey, there's been a holocaust attack we're reporting, let's find a terrorist animal rights story to balance it out" should be attempted, but are we actually experiencing fewer destructive acts by extreme, extreme left wingers because capitalism is looking so weak already? Does this stuff really swing back and forth opposition to where the locus of political power is on the spectrum?

First, we can't put OKC on the same level as Ruby Ridge. I would consider Oklahoma City's tragedy as right-wing terrorism. Ruby Ridge, at its very basic summary, was government intrusion on private land.

I think there are fewer left-wing extremist activities, because the extreme right has more targets--people of color, gays, abortionists, etc. With the left, their terrorism is usually more environmental in nature. It's much more sexy to report on right-wing nutjobs bombing a gay bar than it is to write an article about animal rights activists "liberating" a lab, in part because of the attempts at death and injury.

But, I stand by my point that some segments of the extreme right don't know what to do with themselves now that gay marriage is becoming the law of the land in a growing number of states AND we have a black President.

[honeychile]

Has anyone else thought that this nutjob was trying to commit suicide by police? I've been to the Holocaust Museum several times, and the first thing I said when I heard about the shooting was, "He couldn't get too far - it's probably the most secure museum in DC." His choice of entrances says a lot, too.

I'm very interested in hearing whether or not he has a terminal condition, because that would give him a chance to "go out with glory".

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by honeychile

Has anyone else thought that this nutjob was trying to commit suicide by police? I've been to the Holocaust Museum several times, and the first thing I said when I heard about the shooting was, "He couldn't get too far - it's probably the most secure museum in DC." His choice of entrances says a lot, too.

I'm very interested in hearing whether or not he has a terminal condition, because that would give him a chance to "go out with glory".

Regardless...at 88 and doing that...yeah...I think what you stated may be a good argument for that...I mean he really couldn't think that he was going to succeed did he?

[UGAalum94]

I think there's a lot to fire up crazy people in general right now politically, but Obama's race is certainly novel and likely powerful for racists.

I'm not trying to suggest that people shouldn't be worried about right wing extremist violent craziness because there's also left wing extremist violent craziness, but I'm not sure I agree that there are fewer left targets or that there's been less that threatens human health/life. Think about the WTO 1999 stuff in Seattle or check out this wiki entry on one of the animal rights groups. They were targeting occupied facilities with bombs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolut..._Cells_(RCALB)
So far their human casualties are pretty limited.

I agree that Ruby Ridge is no OKC, but I'm not sure it's as simple as intrusion on private land in its essence. And in terms of influencing or feeding right wing extremism, it was pretty significant. [I want to make clear that I'm not trying to blame the Weavers mainly or anything, but I just think that "intrusion on private land" kind of understates the whole deal.]

It would make sense that as the political power base moves away from one side, the crazies on the fringe of that side get crazier. And both the present stuff if it's a trend and the early 90s stuff to some degree seem to cluster following political transitions leftward. [ETA: Actually, here's more evidence that Ruby Ridge was a poor example to use earlier: It was actually too early to reflect a political shift leftward as a cause. The events are late in HW Bush's term, actually preceding Clinton's election.]

I'm just not sure that the incidents we're seeing now are part of real shift or trend (I have no idea, for instance, how many racially motivated killings there were in the last year before the FBI report.), and I certainly hope that they turn out not to be part of any big increase of violence of any kind.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Regardless...at 88 and doing that...yeah...I think what you stated may be a good argument for that...I mean he really couldn't think that he was going to succeed did he?

The number 88 is symbolic to that movement.

H is the 8th letter of the alphabet. HH means Heil Hitler, so 88 = Heil Hitler.

That could explain the timing.

[DaemonSeid]

Shooter died today