Tossing Out Bids

[carnation]

In Scrapcat's thread, she was mentioning that several girls who rushed with her oldest daughter "tossed out" their bids because they only wanted one house. I have heard several times in the last month that that's getting common. Have any of y'all heard anything about that? Especially by girls aiming for one group?

[33girl]

No different than not showing up at bid day, or declining a bid at your door/at the student center/wherever you find out who bid you. The result is the same. Stupid people are stupid.

[carnation]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No different than not showing up at bid day, or declining a bid at your door/at the student center/wherever you find out who bid you. The result is the same. Stupid people are stupid.

Oh, I meant the same thing. No matter how you decline it, you turned down a bid!

[sunnyday]

Originally Posted by 33girl

No different than not showing up at bid day, or declining a bid at your door/at the student center/wherever you find out who bid you. The result is the same. Stupid people are stupid.

I'm new to posting here, so I don't want what I'm about to ask to come off as combativie. I truly am curious, and that's it.

On one hand, I see young ladies being referred to as "stupid" for declining a bid to a house they really don't feel they are a good fit for. On the other hand, I have seen threads where PNMs are encouraged to "maximize your options" and "keep an open mind". What is the best route for a PNM, then? Should she keep an open mind all the way through pref and if, after attending pref, she really can't see herself in a certain chapter, not list them on her bid card? What if that means suiciding? Isn't that also frowned upon here? But isn't the PNM who just wants letters also frowned upon? It just seems as though there is conflicting advice. On one hand, don't just want to be in any house for the sake of wanting letters. On the other hand, don't suicide because that's not keeping an open mind. But if you don't suicide and get a bid to a house you don't want, then you're being stupid if you decline it. I'm sure this is confusing to PNMs.

Again, not combative at all; just honestly looking for your take. I rushed in 1996 on campus that wasn't competitive at all so a lot of this is new to me. I am a member of an NPC and have been following this site for quite some time but only recently began posting. I'm also now pursuing membership in Beta Sigma Phi.

[carnation]

I believe in maximizing options to a point but I loathe forcing women to go to prefs they don't want to attend and then penalizing them if they don't list them. By the time a PNM gets to prefs, she should have a feel for a group or not (I think I started a thread on forced prefs a few years back).

Forced prefs can also hurt sororities; they can have full pref parties because of that and then end up with few to no new members. I can't imagine the shock of a recruitment chair who had full pref parties and then receives an empty new member list.

Each girl knows how far she can "stretch". If she gets her second or third choice and thinks maybe it's do-able even though her heart is broken, she could try it. If she gets a bid that's a no-way, like in the thread we had on bids that people sometimes get from a sorority they haven't seen in 3 rounds, the no one should be dumping on her for turning it down.

PNMs: try to be open but you know where your limits are.

[crescent&pearls]

Originally Posted by carnation

I believe in maximizing options to a point but I loathe forcing women to go to prefs they don't want to attend and then penalizing them if they don't list them.

What would be the alternative? A pref party is just like every other recruitment event- it's a chance to be introduced to the sorority members and to introduce yourself. You are just getting a chance to get to know them a little better. Yes it's more formal and serious. Attending the party is not making a commitment to list that group on your pref card or initiate.

The "penalty" if that's what you want to call it (I'd call it potential consequence) is that if a PNM lists a group on he pref card, she may potentially get a bid from that group, and if she turns it down, she can not participate in recruitment for one year. A PNM is not going to get a bid from a group she has not seen in 3 rounds unless she lists that group. That would be a very unusual circumstance.

"stupid" might be a harsh way of describing someone who turns down a bid. Even if a PNM is going through recruitment at a school with 15 or more chapters she has only spent a few hours max at recruitment parties. To turn down a bid is just shortsighted and that's why I used the word twit. Give it a chance. If you listed them on your pref card and you can't pursue membership elsewhere for a full year, what do you have to lose? Nothing but the chance to have letters and sisters for life. Isn't that why you signed up in the first place?

[carnation]

Originally Posted by crescent&pearls

A PNM is not going to get a bid from a group she has not seen in 3 rounds unless she lists that group. That would be a very unusual circumstance.

I wish it were but several of us have seen that happen--check the thread about "Getting a Bid Someplace that You Didn't Pref"--many times. It's got to be a bad surprise to go to prefs at sororities A and B and end up with a bid from C, whose parties you haven't attended since the first day. Apparently, this happens for several reasons but rather than recount them all, I'm just referring you to the thread.

[HannahXO]

Originally Posted by sunnyday

On one hand, I see young ladies being referred to as "stupid" for declining a bid to a house they really don't feel they are a good fit for. On the other hand, I have seen threads where PNMs are encouraged to "maximize your options" and "keep an open mind". What is the best route for a PNM, then? Should she keep an open mind all the way through pref and if, after attending pref, she really can't see herself in a certain chapter, not list them on her bid card? What if that means suiciding? Isn't that also frowned upon here? But isn't the PNM who just wants letters also frowned upon? It just seems as though there is conflicting advice. On one hand, don't just want to be in any house for the sake of wanting letters. On the other hand, don't suicide because that's not keeping an open mind. But if you don't suicide and get a bid to a house you don't want, then you're being stupid if you decline it. I'm sure this is confusing to PNMs.

Yes, it is very important to keep an open mind during recruitment and maximize your options. ALL NPC orgs (since we're talking about NPC recruitment) are great groups. And when it comes down to pref night, PNMs have an important decision to make. Is there a chapter that a PNM truly could NEVER see herself being a part of for some reason? What is that reason? Is there a chance her opinion could change after getting to know these women as sisters, without the pressures of recruitment? SIPing (suiciding) is generally seen as a bad idea, and that is because PNMs often aren't aware of how they might actually fit into a chapter. They have never been in a sorority, and don't know what it will be like to be part of that sisterhood. A PNM who SIPs may be precluding herself from a lifetime of membership in a great organization just because she had a few awkward conversations during recruitment. So, continuing to have an open mind through the NM period is key. If a woman has honestly given her chapter a try and doesn't feel comfortable being initiated, that's fine.

Hopefully that answered your question! You're right, it is tricky.

[HQWest]

This is getting common around here. I believe it is the result of the computer system where girls are encouraged to maximize their options. Girls who would have "suicided" one house really only want that one house after prefs, but list all of their choices in the hopes that if they aren't at the top of the list they will get a bid by quota addition. Then, when they don't get what they want when the bids are passed out, they refuse their bid.

Some of it is because of preconceived notions, tent talk, chapters where they had a friend or a legacy and assumed they had an in, some they just had to have a bid.

(As an aside, it is just as upsetting to see legacy's mom standing next to her on bid day and saying, "just take it. take it. They are a great group of girls, too." and PNM sobbing and tossing it away, as legacy mom pitching a fit because PNM didn't get a bid to her legacy.)

[UGAalum94]

What factors cause quota to be set lower, HQWest? I'm not familiar with this aspect.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by HQWest

OK - old school way was to divide the number of ladies who signed up for recruitment by the number of chapters to set quota, but then a lot of girls drop out of recruitment and maybe only a third of chapters get quota. (But then they were ladies about it, and some chapters were just bigger than others.)

When I went through it was number of girls who went to prefs by the number of chapters to set quota, then just one or two chapters don't get quota. In a strong campus system, the smaller chapters each COB a handful of girls (usually upperclassmen), problem solved. If one or two chapters end up with a lot of empty spots though, they can spend forever trying to COB and their problems snowball.

So to try to make it more fair, they now have a computer system that after all of the pref cards are turned in, it comes up with a range of numbers - if quota is 30 then 10 of 15 chapters get quota but if it is 28 then 12 of 15 get quota, but if it is 25 then everyone gets quota, for example. Panhellenic decides (before finding out which chapters would not get quota) where to set quota before passing out the bid lists. The girls who would get "cross-cut" are then made quota additions - so the smaller chapters would get quota +, and everyone can go home happy because everyone made quota, right? The trouble is that girls that do not get their first choice are more likely to drop - so smaller chapters have to deal with more drama. It helps the smallest chapters some, but causes headaches for the middle chapters.

I'm just thinking that it may actually be better to set quota and have a couple chapters miss quota by 2 or 3 than to set it either high, and have a couple chapters that need a lot of COB or too low and have chapters that are getting a larger portion of their pledge class have it second choice.

I didn't realize that quota was ever based on a share of whoever signed up rather than who preffed.

I don't follow too many campuses, but since I've been paying attention, I haven't seen quota size decline that much over the years relative to the pool in recruitment generally. I mention that to note, that yes, if quota on a certain campus used to be 80 and now it's 60 and the size of the PNM pool is the same, then, I'd have to think that meant more girls used to get their top choice. But if quota has been in about the same range for decades or has been increasing, as it seems to be at the campuses I follow, then it's hard to see how the system is decreasing the number of girls who get bids to their top choices.

I tend to think the release figure and quota range issues just shift when PNMs might receive disappointing news. Now they get dropped by top chapters earlier. But now rather than getting cross cut and getting snapped or COB, they get added to a regular bid list of a house they preffed, but they may get added to a group that wasn't their top choice.

I think the sort of bummer for the chapters is that while their recruitment numbers are better, member retention still isn't perfect. But, and I've got no data to support this really, my instincts tell me that retention is no worse than it used to be at the chapters that snapped and COBed. I could be wrong about this, and it could be that the experience of getting dropped completely made a girl more grateful for a snap or COB bid to XYZ than she is being a made a XYZ QA without the conscious awareness that she didn't make the cut at her other choices, even though the panhellenic system of bid matching tried hard to put her there.

The one thing that I'd stress to PNMs is that there's really no way to game the system to get your top choice. Only maximize your options if you sincerely would be happy in your last choice on the bid card. From a Greek Life official perspective any bid is the same positive outcome, but from a PNM perspective, it is not.

ETA: Carnation, isn't the only penalty for SIPing not being eligible for QA? If you don't list a chapter on your bid card, you don't face penalties for not accepting a bid, correct?

In the real world, what are the chances that a girl's first choice is the chapter that she'd get QAed to when she wouldn't have matched there by regular bid matching? Isn't it tiny unless her taste run counter to the PNM pool generally?

EATA: I guess I should clarify that I'm thinking of cases in which a girl is preffing at least one group that she regards as being significantly less desirable than the rest. If she's preffing the three groups regarded as the most desirable on campus, then I'd guess her chances of being QA are equal at each. But when there's a mix of chapter popularity on her bid card, isn't she most likely to end up, if she is a QA, at one of the less popular chapters?

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by HQWest

This happens quite a lot around here. Especially when we have a couple of chapters with huge amounts of legacies going through, she might pref them as a legacy, but they have more legacies than spots.

But what about the other chapters that she preffed? She'd have to not match to them through regular matching too, right? That seems odd.

When you say 25% drop before bid day and half don't see it through to graduation, do you mean at certain chapters or campus wide? If it's campus wide, that seems like something way beyond what any new quota system could fix.

[crescent&pearls]

Why is this such a big source of supposed "misunderstanding" on the part of anyone? A PNM can potentially get a bid from ANY chapter she lists on her preference card. If you'd rather not be in a sorority that potentially have to claim yourself as a NM of Alpha Beta, then don't list them on the pref card. And if you don't get your fave or your second fave, well that's too bad. Buck up and deal. You takes your chances. That's how it works. Simple.

I understand your theory HQWest but I don't think that's really rooted in fact. Even though the majority of PNMs do get a bid from the group they listed as their first preference, there have always been and will always be PNMs that will not get a bid from their first choice. A smaller number will not be placed with their second choice. And all groups, even the most "popular" on any given campus, have NMs who don't initiate for a variety of reasons- financial, time, lack of support from their family or boyfriend, a decision to transfer schools, get involved in other activities or they decide it's just not for them for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by HQWest

(As an aside, it is just as upsetting to see legacy's mom standing next to her on bid day and saying, "just take it. take it. They are a great group of girls, too." and PNM sobbing and tossing it away, as legacy mom pitching a fit because PNM didn't get a bid to her legacy.)

Disagree. If you're such a twit that you wouldn't even give the group a chance, you don't deserve to be a sorority member. If my legacy behaved that way, I'd be mortified. While everyone can understand the twinge of disappointment that your daughter did not join your sorority, if you didn't prepare yourself and her for that possibility (heck maybe probability considering the odds) before she signed up for recruitment you did not do yourself or your daughter due diligence.

[OneHeartOneWay]

Originally Posted by HQWest

Girls who would have "suicided" one house really only want that one house after prefs, but list all of their choices in the hopes that if they aren't at the top of the list they will get a bid by quota addition.

This. 100%.

While there still lots of naive PNMs out there, there are those who read these boards, have friends active in Greek Life, have moms who volunteer, etc. They know how the system works, and they know what game to play. I actually think this will continue to get worse as it becomes more and more common knowledge how quota additions work.

[HannahXO]

My campus delivers bids by decorating your door and leaving your bid day shirt and envelope while PNMs are sequestered in the student center. I came back to find my Chi O bid, and the girl across the hall from me had one too! I said something along the lines of "We're going to be sisters!" And she was just like "No...I'm not doing it." She took down the decoration and went to hide in her room. I thought it was really rude and closed-minded, and it tempered my bid day excitement a little bit.

It is fairly common for several sororities on my campus to bid quota but lose quite a few during the NM period, which is really unfortunate IMO- and most of it is from women refusing to even give their GLO a try, there are very few who try it genuinely aren't happy.

PNMs reading this, always always give your new org a try! They want you and are excited to have you. You may be surprised at how much you love your new chapter in non-recruitment mode.