Michigan voters ban affirmative action

PiKA2001 · #1 11-13-2006, 07:21 PM

so the other week michigan voters banned affirmative action ( thanks to the high profile university of michigan admissions lawsuits over the past few years) and now the tables have turned with every single university and government office preparing lawsuits to counter the ban which is slated to begin next month. I don't understand the outrage because, according to census estimates, michigan is to become a "minority-majority" state within the next ten years due to the ever growing latino/african-american population. Now in regards to AA helping women, the retired, disabled, vets, etc.. doesnt equal oppertunity laws prohibit discrimination against any and all?

jubilance1922 · #2 11-13-2006, 07:29 PM

There is already a thread on this topic. Please post there.

PiKA2001 · #3 11-13-2006, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jubilance1922

There is already a thread on this topic. Please post there.

You mean the general back and forth banter for/against AA in university admissions? I'm talking past college, in the work-force, in a minor-majority state, is there a place for affirmative action? proponets of AA are saying that whites just shot themselves in the foot banning this, since they are expected to be the minority in michigan within ten or so years. Is AA even designed for that? I feel like the system would collapse before benefiting a white male.

AGDee · #4 11-13-2006, 11:29 PM

I had started a thread about the proposal before the election...

http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=81918

DSTCHAOS · #5 11-13-2006, 11:51 PM

Instead of people nitpicking and debating where AA should fit, college or in employment, the bigger discussion is about the state of this country and whether we can challenge the status quo without such measures in place.

If we find that we still need AA (like we still need EEO and social welfare initiatives) somewhere then it doesn't matter where it is implemented. Prejudice and discrimination were never so selective so why are people trying to be?

AKA_Monet · #6 11-14-2006, 03:43 AM

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

DSTCHAOS · #7 11-14-2006, 10:57 AM

My understanding of PiKA's post is that he doesn't understand the uproar over the Michigan ban because of the racial demographic that Michigan is estimated to have in the coming years. Then he's responding to people who argue that on a societal level AA has benefitted more white women and disabled than racial and ethnic minorities. He's saying that equal employment laws like the EEO (which aren't the same as AA for a reason) that help one group helps all groups. Not necessarily. This society is still very racially and class segregated so it is not uncommon for companies to use EEO laws to open the doors for some people who fit under the law and not others. The status quo is kept.

PiKA2001 · #8 11-14-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Pike2001--

What are you really trying to say? Do you live in Michigan? And does the elimination of AA directly affect you?

Have you been displaced by any person of color, sex or disability for access and opportunity?

I just cannot get out of my head when I heard Mrs. Betty Shabazz speak. She kept saying "you MUST read the 1965 Civil Rights Act if you say you are for liberation...

Yeah, i'm from Michigan. I didn't vote to ban AA, and as far as I know, it has never affected me. I'm not too in tune with HR or hiring practices, but EEO and AA always confused me in the sense that they somewhat contradicted each other. I wondered if AA was even necessary because we have EEO, which protects individuals of all backgrounds from discriminatory hiring practices.

shinerbock · #9 11-14-2006, 06:28 PM

AKA, i still don't get the whole "if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't care," attitude. So if white on black racism doesn't affect me, I guess I shouldn't care about that either.

AKA_Monet · #10 11-14-2006, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

AKA, i still don't get the whole "if it doesn't affect you, you shouldn't care," attitude. So if white on black racism doesn't affect me, I guess I shouldn't care about that either.

I don't care what you think, period...

Now with that being said, I am not asking a question of emotion and wondering how people feel about it.

What I am asking is "what is/are your experience(s) with the relevant question"?

If you have never been overtly discriminated against, then how would you know what the problem is? Especially if you are not visualizing it everyday or you actually live in the midst of the problem...

Until the United States solve the issues with poverty, then we will never get beyond equal rights and protections as asked by the Feds.

shinerbock · #11 11-14-2006, 08:56 PM

Who is supposed to "deal" with poverty?

Phasad1913 · #12 11-14-2006, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Who is supposed to "deal" with poverty?

A whole lot of people...INCLUDING the federal government.

shinerbock · #13 11-14-2006, 11:38 PM

What exactly is the federal government going to do? Please tell.

DSTCHAOS · #14 11-15-2006, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinerbock

What exactly is the federal government going to do? Please tell.

I gather you're a (I hate labels, but...) Conservative who believes in minimal gov't involvement, especially when it comes to money and general social equalities. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe that the government should have Moderate involvement in ensuring that the status quo is challenged and the haves don't become richer as the have nots become poorer. This usually takes the form of social welfare programs including but not limited to AFDC, welfare-to-work, and civil rights initiatives to combat the numerous "isms." I know that's not exhaustive and a bit vague but for a list of actual initiatives and proposed initiatives you can do a government documents search of your own.

In essence, I feel you can't target class inequality without targeting other inequalities. I don't advocate complete Socialism because it would be hard to get the tax payers to agree to this. I also believe that some inequality is functional for society (in terms of roles and statuses) and inevitable when we have socially constructed distinct categories such as social class. I simply believe that this society has gone too far with the status quo and pyramid-formation wealth distribution.

DSTCHAOS · #15 11-15-2006, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

I don't care what you think, period...

Now with that being said, I am not asking a question of emotion and wondering how people feel about it.

What I am asking is "what is/are your experience(s) with the relevant question"?

If you have never been overtly discriminated against, then how would you know what the problem is? Especially if you are not visualizing it everyday or you actually live in the midst of the problem...

I can always count on you.

For the record, you continue to ask these (usually white) people on GC about their experiences with these issues. Are you waiting for some groundbreaking information that will make you more receptive to their opinions and experiences? I highly doubt that many if any of the whites who choose to post in such threads will have a tangible experience that they want to share with you. Some might not have a tangible experience at all and others might not want to make themselves vulnerable to being told their experience doesn't count for some reason.

But on the flip side of the whole "you wouldn't understand because of XYZ" stance:

Does every racial and ethnic minority experience discrimination directly. Indirectly? Do "we" get knowledge and understanding of such things via osmosis? Do all of "us" know and understand?

A lot of racial and ethnic minorities are not "overtly discriminated against" as far as they know and do not consciously "visualize it everyday or actually live in the midst." The intersection of race, class, and gender makes it such that we are not monolithic groups who can all relate to an assumed group experience. My race and gender top the list of socially relevant things I will have in common with a poor black women. However, we might experience racism and sexism differently. We certainly experience social class/classism differently since we don't have that in common. But instead of one of our experiences being placed above the other or deemed irrelevant, it's important to share and learn.