The Right to die.

[DaemonSeid]

I was debating whether or not if I was going to start this thread. But I think I am interested in hearing what others have to say about this subject.

So..... things to think about

1. How do you feel about terminally ill or elderly patients requesting a medical facility to terminate their life?

2. What is your stance on euthanasia? Is it humane?

3. With considerations to what happened to Terri Schiavo, how do you feel about others making that decision to terminate that life?

4. Do you have a DNR in place? Would you consider it? Who do you best think would make the right decision?

5. Do you think any kind of legislation that broadens a person's right to take their own life due to terminal illness or age, would make things better or worse for US citizens?



folks you don't have to answer those questions in that order...these are just things to think about as you answer...thanks

[MysticCat]

Okay, I'll bite.

I think it is ethically acceptable to decline or avoid extraordinary means of sustaining life (feeding tubes, respirators, etc.) when it is clear that (1) absent such extraordinary means, nature would take its course and death would occur, and (2) there is no question that the patient would not want such extraordinary means taken. (Which is why DNRs are important. Yes, I need one; thanks for the reminder. )

I do not think it is ethically acceptible to take positive action to end a life. I would be opposed to physician assisted suicide/euthanasia.

[SydneyK]

I agree with MC regarding declining or avoiding extraordinary means of sustaining life. My husband and I both have DNRs in place, and our parents have been informed of our decisions (DNR, organ donation, creamation, etc...).

In addition, I also believe that, if an adult of sound mind is diagnosed with a terminal disease which causes great suffering, that adult should have the option of physician assisted suicide (PAS). I know if I were faced with a terminal condition that caused tremendous suffering, I would want all options, including PAS, available to me. (I realize I'm vague in precisely the areas I need to be clearest - "sound mind", "great suffering", an abundance of "ifs", etc... perhaps if this thread takes off I'll take the time to remedy all that. My opinion still remains: I believe it is morally acceptable to pursue PAS in certain circumstances.)

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I agree with MC regarding declining or avoiding extraordinary means of sustaining life. My husband and I both have DNRs in place, and our parents have been informed of our decisions (DNR, organ donation, creamation, etc...).

In addition, I also believe that, if an adult of sound mind is diagnosed with a terminal disease which causes great suffering, that adult should have the option of physician assisted suicide (PAS). I know if I were faced with a terminal condition that caused tremendous suffering, I would want all options, including PAS, available to me. (I realize I'm vague in precisely the areas I need to be clearest - "sound mind", "great suffering", an abundance of "ifs", etc... perhaps if this thread takes off I'll take the time to remedy all that. My opinion still remains: I believe it is morally acceptable to pursue PAS in certain circumstances.)

I agree here. If you want to kill yourself, you should have the right to do so.

Personally, I'd rather be dead. I'm not depressed by any means and I would not commit suicide, but I've lived enough life and I'm ready to go anytime the Lord wants to take me. I do not want to be resuscitated under any circumstances although I do not have a formal order out there. My family knows my feelings on it although they brought me back from the brink of death in 2002. I was not happy.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

I agree here. If you want to kill yourself, you should have the right to do so.

Maybe I'm straining at gnats here, but is there a difference between having a "right" to do something (at least legally) and it being ethical to do something? I think there probably is.

. . . but I've lived enough life and I'm ready to go anytime the Lord wants to take me.

I think that's why I have a problem with it . . . physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia makes it my decision as to when, not the Lord's. Even if I might legally have the right to decide when I will die, ethically (or religiously, if you prefer), I do not think I have any such right at all.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe I'm straining at gnats here, but is there a difference between having a "right" to do something (at least legally) and it being ethical to do something? I think there probably is.

I think that's why I have a problem with it . . . physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia makes it my decision as to when, not the Lord's. Even if I might legally have the right to decide when I will die, ethically (or religiously, if you prefer), I do not think I have any such right at all.

thanks for bringing that up...I actually meant to put right in quotes when I posted this originally.

[AOII Angel]

As a physician, I am completely opposed to physician assisted suicide but completely supportive of withholding any artificial measures to prolong life if requested by the patient or power of attorney. Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

This, in my opinion, is the best argument for the illegality of PAS.

And, as has already been mentioned, there's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical (and for good reason).

I can totally see both sides, and every time I think about it, I struggle with whether my argument holds water. But in the end, I still think the morality of the issue should be left to the patient. If all options are legally available, then each person should be left to make the moral decision for him/herself.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe I'm straining at gnats here, but is there a difference between having a "right" to do something (at least legally) and it being ethical to do something? I think there probably is.

I'd say there certainly is.

I think that's why I have a problem with it . . . physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia makes it my decision as to when, not the Lord's. Even if I might legally have the right to decide when I will die, ethically (or religiously, if you prefer), I do not think I have any such right at all.

I agree here as well. However, my beliefs should not dictate what another person does with his/her own body.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As a physician, I am completely opposed to physician assisted suicide but completely supportive of withholding any artificial measures to prolong life if requested by the patient or power of attorney. Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

but...would that be ethical?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

I'm not sure I want there to be any medical professionals who are not bound by the tenets of medicine, and I certainly wouldn't want any such persons involved in life or death decisions or actions.

[AGDee]

One could argue that you are doing harm, mental anguish type harm, to someone by forcing them to die a slow, painful and struggling death when a little bit of morphine could hasten the process and keep them peaceful simultaneously. The line between "keeping them comfortable" and killing them is very very fine. I think my mom was euthanized last year so that she didn't have to stay awake/alert while she was gasping for air in that last day. I think, without the morphine, she would have stayed alive another day but in a horribly anxious, desperate, gasping for air state instead of being sound asleep and not struggling. Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

but...would that be ethical?

How are you defining ethical?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

Yes they do. Actually, I was thinking about hospice when I made the comments about other types of medical professionals.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

ME TOO!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AGDee

One could argue that you are doing harm, mental anguish type harm, to someone by forcing them to die a slow, painful and struggling death when a little bit of morphine could hasten the process and keep them peaceful simultaneously. The line between "keeping them comfortable" and killing them is very very fine. I think my mom was euthanized last year so that she didn't have to stay awake/alert while she was gasping for air in that last day. I think, without the morphine, she would have stayed alive another day but in a horribly anxious, desperate, gasping for air state instead of being sound asleep and not struggling. Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

This is always a really touchy situation. I completely agree that living in such conditions is unpleasant at the least. However, the physician is not causing the harm...the disease process is. We don't cause harm by making patients comfortable, but intentionally causing the death of a patient is completely against what the medical profession stands for. Hospice gives morphine to keep the patient comfortable...the consequences of which may cause death. If they are purposefully causing death, then they are breaking the law. They need to keep it quiet. What they are doing could jeopardize their nursing licenses.