The Right to die.

[AOII Angel]

As a physician, I am completely opposed to physician assisted suicide but completely supportive of withholding any artificial measures to prolong life if requested by the patient or power of attorney. Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

This, in my opinion, is the best argument for the illegality of PAS.

And, as has already been mentioned, there's a difference between what is legal and what is ethical (and for good reason).

I can totally see both sides, and every time I think about it, I struggle with whether my argument holds water. But in the end, I still think the morality of the issue should be left to the patient. If all options are legally available, then each person should be left to make the moral decision for him/herself.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Maybe I'm straining at gnats here, but is there a difference between having a "right" to do something (at least legally) and it being ethical to do something? I think there probably is.

I'd say there certainly is.

I think that's why I have a problem with it . . . physician-assisted suicide/euthanasia makes it my decision as to when, not the Lord's. Even if I might legally have the right to decide when I will die, ethically (or religiously, if you prefer), I do not think I have any such right at all.

I agree here as well. However, my beliefs should not dictate what another person does with his/her own body.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As a physician, I am completely opposed to physician assisted suicide but completely supportive of withholding any artificial measures to prolong life if requested by the patient or power of attorney. Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

but...would that be ethical?

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

but...would that be ethical?

How are you defining ethical?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

If assisted suicide were ever fully legalized, there could be an entirely separate category of medical professionals who would handle this sort of situation - ones that are not bound by the tenants of medicine.

I'm not sure I want there to be any medical professionals who are not bound by the tenets of medicine, and I certainly wouldn't want any such persons involved in life or death decisions or actions.

[AGDee]

One could argue that you are doing harm, mental anguish type harm, to someone by forcing them to die a slow, painful and struggling death when a little bit of morphine could hasten the process and keep them peaceful simultaneously. The line between "keeping them comfortable" and killing them is very very fine. I think my mom was euthanized last year so that she didn't have to stay awake/alert while she was gasping for air in that last day. I think, without the morphine, she would have stayed alive another day but in a horribly anxious, desperate, gasping for air state instead of being sound asleep and not struggling. Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

Yes they do. Actually, I was thinking about hospice when I made the comments about other types of medical professionals.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

ME TOO!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AGDee

One could argue that you are doing harm, mental anguish type harm, to someone by forcing them to die a slow, painful and struggling death when a little bit of morphine could hasten the process and keep them peaceful simultaneously. The line between "keeping them comfortable" and killing them is very very fine. I think my mom was euthanized last year so that she didn't have to stay awake/alert while she was gasping for air in that last day. I think, without the morphine, she would have stayed alive another day but in a horribly anxious, desperate, gasping for air state instead of being sound asleep and not struggling. Hospice does this all the time, they simply do it quietly.

I truly hope I just fall over dead without any of the long drawn out suffering. It's torturous to the patient and the family to go through that. I felt like I was severely traumatized by watching my mom die a tiny bit more every day for a month. I hope that once my quality of life is gone, I go very quickly.

This is always a really touchy situation. I completely agree that living in such conditions is unpleasant at the least. However, the physician is not causing the harm...the disease process is. We don't cause harm by making patients comfortable, but intentionally causing the death of a patient is completely against what the medical profession stands for. Hospice gives morphine to keep the patient comfortable...the consequences of which may cause death. If they are purposefully causing death, then they are breaking the law. They need to keep it quiet. What they are doing could jeopardize their nursing licenses.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Yes they do. Actually, I was thinking about hospice when I made the comments about other types of medical professionals.

FWIW, none of the friends I have who work or have worked for hospice would call themselves "medical professionals" . . . except, of course, for the ones who are doctors or nurses (and therefore bound by medical ethics).

Originally Posted by AGDee

One could argue that you are doing harm, mental anguish type harm, to someone by forcing them to die a slow, painful and struggling death when a little bit of morphine could hasten the process and keep them peaceful simultaneously. The line between "keeping them comfortable" and killing them is very very fine.

It is, and maybe we're getting into areas of grey here. At least accoring to the Wiki (hey, why not), what you describe is called "passive euthanasia."

Euthanasia may be conducted passively, non-aggressively, and aggressively. Passive euthanasia entails the withholding of common treatments (such as antibiotics, pain medications, or surgery) or the distribution of a medication (such as morphine) to relieve pain, knowing that it may also result in death (principle of double effect). Passive euthanasia is the most accepted form, and it is a common practice in most hospitals. Non-aggressive euthanasia entails the withdrawing of life support and is more controversial. Aggressive euthanasia entails the use of lethal substances or forces to kill and is the most controversial means.

The Wiki on Physician Assisted Suicide.

I think that this is quite different from "aggressive euthanasia," which is what I, at least, think of when I hear "physician assisted suicide" -- a terminally ill patient, who by law usually must be of sound mind, makes a conscious decision to commit suicide before the illness puts them in what they consider an untenable quality of life situation and seeks out the help of a physician or medical professional to carry out the suicide painlessly and quickly. It's this later practice I have a problem with.

The Wiki also describes the Principle of double effect here; the description is quite in line with what AOII Angel said above.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Having a physician assist in a suicide is asking him/her to disregard the first tenant of medicine "First do no harm."

Can it not be argued that by allowing a patient to live who suffers greatly every day and wishes to not live, the physician is assisting in the harm of that patient?

ETA: I see it was already answered - my bad!

[Tom Earp]

I have it in my will that is binding that I will not be kept alive if there is no hope.

This releives the medical people of any recourse.

Why burden the family if any remaining with medical costs that they cannot afford or want?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Tom Earp

I have it in my will that is binding that I will not be kept alive if there is no hope.

This releives the medical people of any recourse.

Why burden the family if any remaining with medical costs that they cannot afford or want?

I completely agree with you Tom. Our country goes soooo overboard on end of life care. No one knows how to say enough is enough, because so many decisions are made by people that feel too guilty for not doing enough for their parents and can't let go. Universal health care will never work here for this main reason...most medical costs are associated with the last two weeks of life.

[AKA_Monet]

Let me ask you all this question:

Have you EVER "euthanized" ANYTHING beyond a bug yourself? Particularly, a mammal?

If you have, then you should know with that comes responsibilities, that are sometimes difficult to swallow. You cannot do it with cruel intentions and malice and it must always be done with compassion...

Extending it to humans is difficult--especially if one has never seen another human die albeit slowly, painfully or quickly. Then, it is tough to imagine modern burial techniques--i.e. one must still prep the body even if it is to be cremated.

The best anyone can do is not only have a DNR, no code (because my grandmother's was ignored prolonging her painful existence), but also a Physician's Health Directive, POLST form and a living will and trust.

I personally do NOT want any healthcare worker injecting me with any lethal injections of anything even if I am from the Borg Collective... If I die naturally, with minimal pain because of the morphine drip, then hey, K.I.M.

But healthcare worker assisted suicide no matter what the cause--unrealistic in a "civilized society"... We know we can do better. There are some fine scientists working on the concepts of pain management, chronic diseases of the aging, and improvement of the quality of life. We MUST persuade people that we are better and we will improve health and wellness by all means necessary!

Dr. AKA_Monet
Ariafya LLC

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Let me ask you all this question:

Have you EVER "euthanized" ANYTHING beyond a bug yourself? Particularly, a mammal?

If you have, then you should know with that comes responsibilities, that are sometimes difficult to swallow. You cannot do it with cruel intentions and malice and it must always be done with compassion...

Extending it to humans is difficult--especially if one has never seen another human die albeit slowly, painfully or quickly. Then, it is tough to imagine modern burial techniques--i.e. one must still prep the body even if it is to be cremated.

The best anyone can do is not only have a DNR, no code (because my grandmother's was ignored prolonging her painful existence), but also a Physician's Health Directive, POLST form and a living will and trust.

I personally do NOT want any healthcare worker injecting me with any lethal injections of anything even if I am from the Borg Collective... If I die naturally, with minimal pain because of the morphine drip, then hey, K.I.M.

But healthcare worker assisted suicide no matter what the cause--unrealistic in a "civilized society"... We know we can do better. There are some fine scientists working on the concepts of pain management, chronic diseases of the aging, and improvement of the quality of life. We MUST persuade people that we are better and we will improve health and wellness by all means necessary!

Dr. AKA_Monet
Ariafya LLC

Well said!