Trusting the system when there is bad situation

[PinkPaisley]

I would like to seek some advice for my daughter who will be a PNM this fall at a mid sized school with a small but growing Greek presence on campus. She will not be a legacy at this school- at another she would have been. There are 5 NPH sororities on campus, 4 of which are strong in community service, GPA, etc. Their numbers and retention is growing steadily. Then there is a sorority which is either on warning (or possibly probation) for grades. Their GPA is quite low and plummeted in the past two semesters. The chapter is at this time half the size of the others. They did little to no philanthropy last year, do not participate in Greek events, there have been altercations (physical brawls) with these girls and others while out on the town and other behavior that may be deemed a bit over the top. We live in this college town, and these situations are commonly known.

Of course I would love to say that all they need is some strong leadership and a few good years and strong PCs to improve and get back on track. I could actually see this as a given in a bigger school; but here, I am not sure that it will or even could happen, there has already been talk of the chapter being closed. Their downward trend started several years ago and has progressed. They have never been the strongest chapter.

My daughter has committed to being 100% open minded about the process and not picking favorites, honestly she believes she could fit in with any of the other 4- yet she still has some concerns about this house. Her concerns are NOT based on the "I don't want to be in this sorority because... " mindset, they are more along the lines of, "what happens if they fold in the next year? Where would I be then?" I think this is a valid concern on her part. So the advice I seek is a hypothetical situation- what to do if this chapter shows up on my daughters pref list. Take the risk, and put them down as a choice or suicide (yikes).

As I said, this is completely hypothetical, rush is weeks away for her, and there is no telling who will be on her pref card (maybe she won't even get to the pref rounds- who knows!) Yet I would like to get some insight from some knowledgeable ladies who may have heard of this type of situation before, and maybe it will be a good discussion.

Thank you in advance.

***Please note**** I am on NO WAY saying that this chapter is closing, or implying that I think it is.

[33girl]

If you trust that you've raised your daughter with good judgement about people, she will be able to see that either 1) these girls are really the Hot Mess Express that everyone thinks they are or 2) the situation has been completely blown out of proportion (the fact that grades are the first thing you mention and that the alleged "altercations" are the last tells me something) and they're simply the less popular chapter. If that's who your daughter feels at home with, then that's who she feels at home with. It may be she would rather have 2 semesters as an active with women she truly loves and who will be lifelong friends, rather than the chapter that she picked just because they seemed "sturdy."

If at the end of rush week her situation is the hypothetical you've set out, and she would rather not be Greek than be in this (or any) sorority, she should NOT write their name on her bid card.

[Sciencewoman]

This is very hypothetical, but if she would not feel comfortable being a member of that group, then I don't think she should list it on her MRABA card. However, she should be polite, open-minded and see what happens. Your information may be more valid than the typical "tent talk" and gossip, but I'd still keep an open mind.

That being said, if the group really is on the brink of closing, that's as risky as "suiciding" on your card. It would be awful to join a group, have them close right after you initiated, and then there goes your collegiate sorority experience.

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by PinkPaisley

I would like to seek some advice for my daughter who will be a PNM this fall at a mid sized school with a small but growing Greek presence on campus. She will not be a legacy at this school- at another she would have been. There are 5 NPH sororities on campus, 4 of which are strong in community service, GPA, etc. Their numbers and retention is growing steadily. Then there is a sorority which is either on warning (or possibly probation) for grades. Their GPA is quite low and plummeted in the past two semesters. The chapter is at this time half the size of the others. They did little to no philanthropy last year, do not participate in Greek events, there have been altercations (physical brawls) with these girls and others while out on the town and other behavior that may be deemed a bit over the top. We live in this college town, and these situations are commonly known.

Of course I would love to say that all they need is some strong leadership and a few good years and strong PCs to improve and get back on track. I could actually see this as a given in a bigger school; but here, I am not sure that it will or even could happen, there has already been talk of the chapter being closed. Their downward trend started several years ago and has progressed. They have never been the strongest chapter.

My daughter has committed to being 100% open minded about the process and not picking favorites, honestly she believes she could fit in with any of the other 4- yet she still has some concerns about this house. Her concerns are NOT based on the "I don't want to be in this sorority because... " mindset, they are more along the lines of, "what happens if they fold in the next year? Where would I be then?" I think this is a valid concern on her part. So the advice I seek is a hypothetical situation- what to do if this chapter shows up on my daughters pref list. Take the risk, and put them down as a choice or suicide (yikes).

As I said, this is completely hypothetical, rush is weeks away for her, and there is no telling who will be on her pref card (maybe she won't even get to the pref rounds- who knows!) Yet I would like to get some insight from some knowledgeable ladies who may have heard of this type of situation before, and maybe it will be a good discussion.

Thank you in advance.

I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible:

1. Unless you are part of that sorority or its national organization, how is it that you can speak to the degree of probation that a chapter is on? And if you do know, consider if it is your info to be spread? Would you like it if this were your kid's house? Please don't spread this sort of thing during recruitment season.

Do you know how many times I've heard "I heard XYZ is closing next year?" from PNMs when that is FAR from the truth. Too many.

2. It seems like you are asking if there's some course of action that can be taken if your kid gets this chapter on her pref list. There is no "delete chapters I find to be too small for me to join" option within the recruitment software.

3. If she would not accept a bid from them, they do not need to be on her pref list. If that chapter is one of 2 options for her and she would like to ISP (tecnical term for "suicide") that one house, she needs to ask herself she'd be okay without a bid if it meant not having this chapter as a second choice (remember that any chapter a PNM attends for pref and lists on her card could end up being where she matches.)

4. Small note: Discussing how terrible and undesirable a chapter is does not help its reputation or help it to get any stronger. For example, your kid joins the house that is NEXT to Smallest Chapter. Continued trash talk hurts Smallest Chapter and they close. Your kid is now in the NEW Smallest Chapter. See how that works? So please take it easy on them because it could be YOUR kid's hypothetical group at some point.

[KDCat]

[QUOTE=33girl;2226178]If you trust that you've raised your daughter with good judgement about people, she will be able to see that either 1) these girls are really the Hot Mess Express that everyone thinks they are or 2) the situation has been completely blown out of proportion (the fact that grades are the first thing you mention and that the alleged "altercations" are the last tells me something) and they're simply the less popular chapter. If that's who your daughter feels at home with, then that's who she feels at home with. It may be she would rather have 2 semesters as an active with women she truly loves and who will be lifelong friends, rather than the chapter that she picked just because they seemed "sturdy."

If at the end of rush week her situation is the hypothetical you've set out, and she would rather not be Greek than be in this (or any) sorority, she should NOT write their name on her bid card./QUOTE]

She can list only the bids that she would take and if she doesn't get a bid, move on to other activities, or try to get a bid through COB.

She won't be guaranteed a bid at the end of recruitment, but she also won't be bound for one year to a group that she has no intention of pledging.

[PinkPaisley]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible:

1. Unless you are part of that sorority or its national organization, how is it that you can speak to the degree of probation that a chapter is on? I did not speak of the level of probation it was on- or state that it is was NPH or school- but this info is available on many universities websites, along with the GPA's..

And if you do know, consider if it is your info to be spread? In this case it is public information, Im not spreading it Would you like it if this were your kid's house? I am not sure what you mean by this- it is what it is
Please don't spread this sort of thing during recruitment season. "This sort of information" is public on many universities websites and I am coming here looking for insight, not to spread rumors.

Do you know how many times I've heard "I heard XYZ is closing next year?" from PNMs.


2. It seems like you are asking if there's some course of action that can be taken if your kid gets this chapter on her pref list. There is no "delete chapters I find to be too small for me to join" option within the recruitment software. This was not the case at all, you may be reading too much into what I wrote, or have read many posts where parents are looking for in- that isn't the case at all-- or I have stated this completely wrong in the original post. I stated that this was right now is hypothetical situation and I was just looking to gain some insight from knowledgeable people and it might be a good topic for discussion. This also has nothing to do with size of the chapter. My daughter chose this school because it was a smaller school, and had smaller classes, and smaller Greek chapters.

3. If she would not accept a bid from them, they do not need to be on her pref list. If that chapter is one of 2 options for her and she would like to ISP (tecnical term for "suicide") that one house, she needs to ask herself she'd be okay without a bid if it meant not having this chapter as a second choice (remember that any chapter a PNM attends for pref and lists on her card could end up being where she matches.) I really believe my daughter was/is trying to do the right thing by asking me my opinion- I did not really know what to tell her because I have never seen a situation like this before. I personally would love to see this chapter come back, and be as strong as the others in the future. The school is in our town, and we love it and support it fully! We also believe that Greek life is important to the growth of the school.

4. Small note: Discussing how terrible and undesirable a chapter is does not help its reputation or help it to get any stronger. For example, your kid joins the house that is NEXT to Smallest Chapter. Continued trash talk hurts Smallest Chapter and they close. Your kid is now in the NEW Smallest Chapter. See how that works? So please take it easy on them because it could be YOUR kid's hypothetical group at some point.

If you think that I was posting to speak badly of sorority- I am sorry that you took it that way. That was my not my intention, I took a very long time trying to word it so it would not be taken as such. My daughter is not into what level an organization is in the scheme of the Greek life on campus. I did not believe I could come on here and say, "well their gpa has dropped" and have the readers who I am asking advice from truly understand the situation. I took ONLY what I knew to be factual information and softened it so as not to appear harsh. To be fair, I also did not state that they were closing, I said there was talk of it--and yes, I am aware of how unreliable this could be, yet that talk in addition to the other info, is what made me reach out to the people here for their opinions. My daughter is concerned about what would happen to new members if something like this did happen. Would there be other options for her in this situation? And yes hypothetically- just for discussion purposes

[Sciencewoman]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Would you like it if this were your kid's house?

Your kid is now in the NEW Smallest Chapter.
So please take it easy on them because it could be YOUR kid's hypothetical group at some point.

Here's where I'm coming from: I transferred to a chapter that had low numbers and was really struggling. We were always informally recruiting. It took a lot of time and energy...energy that really should have been spent on our studies. When I was a 5th year senior, our International President came and told the chapter that IC had voted to reorganize and all the members would be given alumnae status. That was absolutely awful. It didn't affect me "personally" -- I still had my initiating chapter and I was graduating. But, I felt so guilty about the younger women we'd just initiated and who now had no chapter...and would instead see new women wearing our letters the next fall. Many of them transferred to other schools before the fall. At Convention last year, I told the then President that I was sitting in front of her when she came and made that announcement, and we both cried. I loved my affiliate chapter and I love my sisters, but I honestly wouldn't want my daughter to have to go through this.

Thankfully, RFM means this doesn't happen so much anymore. I don't care about tiers...find your home. But I honestly have to say that I'd be equally concerned about my daughter joining a group that faced significant struggles that go beyond "tent talk" -- my first priority would be to my daughter, not the long term status of a chapter to which I had no connection. If she did join a seriously struggling chapter, I'd do everything I could to help.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

Here's where I'm coming from: I transferred to a chapter that had low numbers and was really struggling. We were always informally recruiting. It took a lot of time and energy...energy that really should have been spent on our studies. When I was a 5th year senior, our International President came and told the chapter that IC had voted to reorganize and all the members would be given alumnae status. That was absolutely awful. It didn't affect me "personally" -- I still had my initiating chapter and I was graduating. But, I felt so guilty about the younger women we'd just initiated and who now had no chapter...and would instead see new women wearing our letters the next fall. Many of them transferred to other schools before the fall. At Convention last year, I told the then President that I was sitting in front of her when she came and made that announcement, and we both cried. I loved my affiliate chapter and I love my sisters, but I honestly wouldn't want my daughter to have to go through this.

Thankfully, RFM means this doesn't happen so much anymore. I don't care about tiers...find your home. But I honestly have to say that I'd be equally concerned about my daughter joining a group that faced significant struggles that go beyond "tent talk" -- my first priority would be to my daughter, not the long term status of a chapter to which I had no connection. If she did join a seriously struggling chapter, I'd do everything I could to help.

I was in a WRC, and we had to constantly COB, and so on, but I still think it's hard to say what "small" is or how it affects an experience from the outside. My chapter was "small" because we had about 110 women, when total was about 145, and the biggest chapters were hitting 200.

Do I feel my experience was all that different from the big guys on my campus? Not at all. More stressful during recruitment season, probably, but still large enough that we functioned just like any other chapter. We had a two-year live-in requirement when some chapters only had one, but I liked living in the house, and it was way cheap to do so.

So, while I respect the desire not to join an "about-to-close" chapter, I think that rumors and bad GPA are a far cry from "about-to-close".

[DubaiSis]

While I can appreciate your concern, there's nothing you can do about it now. She's gonna have to go through rush and see the chips fall where they may. But I would counsel her to be very panhellenic and while other girls are speaking ill of this chapter to either not participate or try to nip the negative talk. Even if she decides to SIP instead of taking the chapter she doesn't want, she should be ladylike enough to not make those who do choose to bite the bullet feel worse.

There's no good way to have this conversation because we all want the girls to be brave and take the risky chapter, but you're right. Sometimes they're better off not doing so. Without knowing what school and what chapter (and for dog's sake, don't tell us), nobody can clarify, correct or corroborate what you think to be true. Just tell her to put her best foot forward, make up her own mind (reputations can change remarkably quickly, by the way), and deal with the circumstances she's given, all while being polite and friendly with and about everyone she encounters. During rush even more than in everyday life. And you too. Good luck to both of you!

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by PinkPaisley

If you think that I was posting to speak badly of sorority- I am sorry that you took it that way. That was my not my intention, I took a very long time trying to word it so it would not be taken as such. My daughter is not into what level an organization is in the scheme of the Greek life on campus. I did not believe I could come on here and say, "well their gpa has dropped" and have the readers who I am asking advice from truly understand the situation. I took ONLY what I knew to be factual information and softened it so as not to appear harsh. To be fair, I also did not state that they were closing, I said there was talk of it--and yes, I am aware of how unreliable this could be, yet that talk in addition to the other info, is what made me reach out to the people here for their opinions. My daughter is concerned about what would happen to new members if something like this did happen. Would there be other options for her in this situation? And yes hypothetically- just for discussion purposes

Her options should she pref there:

1. Attend and list them as her 2nd choice and see what happens with the UNDERSTANDING that if she lists them, she could get a bid from them.

2. ISP. Cool if she'd rather not be in a sorority than pledge this group.

If she lists them on her card and gets a bid there:

1. Accept and give it a shot (there are entire threads here about giving your second choice a shot.)

2. Decline her bid, knowing that she may not join another group for a year.

That's pretty much it.

If you get a bid to a chapter you do not want, there is no "I got a bid here and I don't want it, can I pledge somewhere else?" option. You either take it and give it a shot or you decline and wait a year to go through again. The key is determining whether you would accept. If you go to a pref party and you KNOW you would rather not be Greek than get a bid to a chapter, do not list it on your MRABA (pref card.)

[Titchou]

The answer to your question My daughter is concerned about what would happen to new members if something like this did happen. Would there be other options for her in this situation? is covered in the NPC Manual of Information, aka The Green Book. According to NPC rules (and I assume you mean NPC, not NPHC) none of the new members would be eligible to pledge another group until the next formal recruitment period for that campus. And the initiated members, of course, would not ever be eligible to join another NPC group.

[ADPiEE]

This is a tough decision so I'll tell you what I'd tell my own daughter if she was going through recruitment right now.

1. Don't worry about it until you actually go through recruitment. You may not even end up with that chapter at Pref. Or, you may fall in love with that chapter after meeting the girls--who knows?

2. You may get to Pref and have only that chapter. In that case, I say accept the bid because I still think the benefits of being Greek outweigh the disadvantages of being in a smaller chapter. Your sorority is for a lifetime.

3. If you get to Pref and have two possibilities--the WRC and one other, rank them how you like them. If you "suicide", you have a chance of not receiving a bid at all. If you "maximize your options," you at least have your new member period to give the chapter a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong other GCers but from what I've seen, recruitements are rarely more successful the 2nd time around unless there's a grade issue.

I would want my daughter to at least try Greek life during a new member period.

[PinkPaisley]

A lot of great answers here! Thanks.

As I said- this is a pretty hypothetical situation. My daughter has assured me that she is going in with an open mind, she is not the type to let the reputation (true or not) influence her actions toward anyone so there is as much chance as she will pref that house as any other. (Statistically maybe more? Since they will have less cuts in the beginning rounds?) Hers was just the "what if... would happen-- what would happen in that situation" fear. She isn't the kind of kid who would go into a house and be rude to people just so she would be invited back- she just isn't wired that way. She also is not a "let me join the gossip"-- no time for that. She has a great "uh huh...that's great" smile and nod... and uses it often. This is the best tool a young woman can have.

This board is really full of wonderful information, the different views expressed are beneficial to PNMs and their parents. I appreciate that members here do not have to agree with each other, because there are always different ways look at things. Thank you all again! And I'll let you know how it works out for her!

[KSUViolet06]

Originally Posted by PinkPaisley

(Statistically maybe more? Since they will have less cuts in the beginning rounds?)

Some info for you re: cuts:

I won't get into all the technical info that goes into release figures, but with the use of RFM, statistically the heaviest cuts ARE made in earlier rounds (as chapters have a specific percentage/number of PNMs that they must release based on a formula that takes into account their past recruitment returns, size, and a few other factors.) This also leads to fewer "cut right before Pref" moments as the chapters have released more PNMs earlier on.

Just wanted to point that out so you can prepare yourselves for the possibility of some cuts early on. The average PNM is cut rather heavy early on, but less so as recruitment progresses.

[FSUZeta]

Are all campuses using RFM now?