Hi! I'm not greek...

[CuriousQueer]

Hey there! As I said in the title, I'm not a member of any Greek organization--much less a social one. Sorry, in advance, for the long post.

I suppose I should introduce myself.
I'm a 20-year-old butch woman, living/going to school in Florida. When I first started college, I didn't have the slightest interest in greek orgs... but recently that's begun to change. The idea of a "sisterhood" is very appealing to me, at this point in my life.

I'm curious about two things:
(1) Are there any sororities that would welcome me despite my gender nonconformity? I'm under the impression that most greek letter orgs have dress codes for their members, for certain events. Has anyone heard of a sorority that would allow a member to wear suits and ties? I've been reluctant to ask acquaintances that are in sororities, because they generally seem so involved in their femininity. So involved, that they overlook the possibility that a butch might be interested. If I ever bring up greek orgs in conversation, men and women alike assume that my masculinity means I have no interest in greek life. (Or maybe I'm reading them wrong. Hopefully I'm reading them wrong.)

(2) Even if I let my gender questions slip to the back of my mind... isn't 20 too old for this?

*sigh* After this post, I should be able to take a look around the rest of forum; hopefully I'll find some of the answers I seek. BUT, if someone would help me out by answering in this thread, I would greatly appreciate it.

[Old_Row]

Originally Posted by CuriousQueer

Hey there! As I said in the title, I'm not a member of any Greek organization--much less a social one. Sorry, in advance, for the long post.

I suppose I should introduce myself.
I'm a 20-year-old butch woman, living/going to school in Florida. When I first started college, I didn't have the slightest interest in greek orgs... but recently that's begun to change. The idea of a "sisterhood" is very appealing to me, at this point in my life.

I'm curious about two things:
(1) Are there any sororities that would welcome me despite my gender nonconformity? I'm under the impression that most greek letter orgs have dress codes for their members, for certain events. Has anyone heard of a sorority that would allow a member to wear suits and ties? I've been reluctant to ask acquaintances that are in sororities, because they generally seem so involved in their femininity. So involved, that they overlook the possibility that butch might be interested. If I ever bring up the greek orgs in conversation, men and women alike assume that my masculinity means I have no interest in greek life. (Or maybe I'm reading them wrong. Hopefully I'm reading them wrong.)

(2) Even if I let my gender questions slip to the back of my mind... isn't 20 too old for this?

*sigh* After this post, I should be able to take a look around the rest of forum; hopefully I'll find some of the answers I seek. BUT, if someone would help me out by answering in this thread, I would greatly appreciate it.

I think the answers to your questions would all depend on the Greek culture at your school.

[ElieM]

Yeah, it probably depends on your school. There are chapters that wouldn't blink an eye at someone turning up in nice pants to a ritual (some of the threads mention people wearing pants to their pledging ritual). At other schools this is probably unheard of.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by CuriousQueer

Hey there! As I said in the title, I'm not a member of any Greek organization--much less a social one. Sorry, in advance, for the long post.

I suppose I should introduce myself.
I'm a 20-year-old butch woman, living/going to school in Florida. When I first started college, I didn't have the slightest interest in greek orgs... but recently that's begun to change. The idea of a "sisterhood" is very appealing to me, at this point in my life.

I'm curious about two things:
(1) Are there any sororities that would welcome me despite my gender nonconformity? I'm under the impression that most greek letter orgs have dress codes for their members, for certain events. Has anyone heard of a sorority that would allow a member to wear suits and ties? I've been reluctant to ask acquaintances that are in sororities, because they generally seem so involved in their femininity. So involved, that they overlook the possibility that butch might be interested. If I ever bring up the greek orgs in conversation, men and women alike assume that my masculinity means I have no interest in greek life. (Or maybe I'm reading them wrong. Hopefully I'm reading them wrong.)

(2) Even if I let my gender questions slip to the back of my mind... isn't 20 too old for this?

*sigh* After this post, I should be able to take a look around the rest of forum; hopefully I'll find some of the answers I seek. BUT, if someone would help me out by answering in this thread, I would greatly appreciate it.

It depends on the specific chapters on your specific campus.

I don't know that there are any NPC groups that have skirts/dresses written into stone for anything (though I can't speak to others' rituals), but some chapters may be open to something different, and others may not be. For example, if everyone in the chapter wears black dresses during the last stage of recruitment (pref), and you wish to wear a menswear-style suit, that will send a message to PNM's. One chapter may embrace that message as a way to show how diverse and welcoming they are, while another may worry that it will make them look "weird" to the PNM's.

On the other hand, you have a choice on how flexible to be as well. Are you willing to put on a black dress one day out of the year? What about something like a dressy women's pantsuit? While I wouldn't tell you to compromise your own identity, in many chapters, tomboy types do things for recruitment they wouldn't normally want to do (and if I'm reading your post right, you are butch, but still identify as female).

The age thing also depends on the school, but at many schools, upperclassmen can have a successful rush if they are willing to consider all chapters.

You say you are in Florida, and there are people who can give more info on which schools are more traditional and which may be more open-minded about new members.

[preciousjeni]

I would also recommend that you think about what type of experience you're looking for. The various social sororities in existence are not one size fits all, though we all share similarities.

Based on my own experience, you may find a connection with one of many multicultural sororities. I would plug my own sorority, but we may not be an option depending on where you are and how long you have left in school.

Then again, you may be looking for an experience that you would only find in an NPC-like organization.

[summer_gphib]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

It depends on the specific chapters on your specific campus.

I don't know that there are any NPC groups that have skirts/dresses written into stone for anything (though I can't speak to others' rituals), but some chapters may be open to something different, and others may not be. For example, if everyone in the chapter wears black dresses during the last stage of recruitment (pref), and you wish to wear a menswear-style suit, that will send a message to PNM's. One chapter may embrace that message as a way to show how diverse and welcoming they are, while another may worry that it will make them look "weird" to the PNM's.

On the other hand, you have a choice on how flexible to be as well. Are you willing to put on a black dress one day out of the year? What about something like a dressy women's pantsuit? While I wouldn't tell you to compromise your own identity, in many chapters, tomboy types do things for recruitment they wouldn't normally want to do (and if I'm reading your post right, you are butch, but still identify as female).

The age thing also depends on the school, but at many schools, upperclassmen can have a successful rush if they are willing to consider all chapters.

You say you are in Florida, and there are people who can give more info on which schools are more traditional and which may be more open-minded about new members.

This is really good advice. To be honest, I loathe dressing up, and always have. But a part of being Greek meant that a few times a year, I had to put on a cocktail dress and high heels. Did I love it? No. Was it me? Not really, I've always been a more casual person. But the joys I got out of being in my organizations meant more to me than the fact I had to get "gussied up." Everyone of us has had moments we "didn't love" or that didn't feel 100 percent authentic to who we are, (how many of us really enjoyed every aspect being in an overcrowded room that was 112 degrees, smiling and talking to freshmen about their majors in 800 different parties in one night!??) but the end goal of being part of something bigger than yourself is worth it. Being in a sorority is about sisterhood, tradition, and believing in your organization.

[DrPhil]

For the record, not enjoying wearing skirts and dresses is different than being a "butch gender nonconformist woman."

I didn't start liking skirts and dresses until I reached my 30s. I was and still am a "gender nonconformist" in some ways. But, I was never "gender nonconformist" or "butch" in the way the OP probably means.

I assume the OP truly means that she is a "butch woman gender nonconformist" and does not consider herself transgendered. That would be a different topic.

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I don't know that there are any NPC groups that have skirts/dresses written into stone for anything (though I can't speak to others' rituals), but some chapters may be open to something different, and others may not be.

Our materials specifically state that we may not wear pants to any ritual event. It must be a dress or a skirt/blouse combination. We can wear pants for badge attire, though. I guess it varies from organization to organization.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by victoriana

Our materials specifically state that we may not wear pants to any ritual event. It must be a dress or a skirt/blouse combination. We can wear pants for badge attire, though. I guess it varies from organization to organization.

I was going to reply with this, but you beat me to it!

I remember when I attended convetion 5 years ago, there was a sister whom I met and sat close to in nearly all of our general sessions who was in a similar situation as the OP. She would wear a dress shirt with a tie and pants when badge attire was required, but during rituals when we were required to wear our whites, she was wearing a dress.

if you're going to be a sister of a sorority, you should be allowed to be yourself, but be aware that there might be requirements for certain organizations that you must adhere to. And as others have said, depending on where you go to school will depend on how accepting people are of you. Just make sure that you're comfortable and that you're not compromising everything you like and want just to be in a chapter. Your sisters should like you for who you are.

[Lightning Bug!]

I went to school in the nineties, and about 50% of the chapters at my school had at least one "out" butch woman. My chapter had a couple. The year I was a senior, I was not able to make our chapter's formal, but one of the younger members took a female date to formal, and I believe the member wore a tux, the date wore a dress, although maybe they both wore tuxes. Anyway, apparently (and I have this from a reliable source), nobody batted an eye UNTIL member pulled up a chair in the middle of the dance floor and gave her date a lap dance. That transcends sexual preference as a giant no-no, and people were as upset as if it had been a heterosexual couple. Grind if you want at mixers, but lap dances at formal is outrageous, no matter your sexual orientation. The big question, of course, was whether she did it because she felt like she'd never been accepted or whether it just was what she wanted to do at that moment (no idea how much alcohol, if any, had been consumed). Basically everyone felt uncomfortable, but our standards board didn't want to touch it with a ten-foot pole, lest she think it was because she was a lesbian. Honestly, unless something was going on that I was missing, I don't think that was the issue, since we had a couple of "out" butch members and a handful of bisexual members. So again, unless she was being snubbed, and I just didn't notice it, I think the issue was that everyone felt hurt that she pulled that stunt. The tux was fine, the date was fine, but the lap dance felt like an "in your face" move.

My sophomore year informal, my boyfriend was out of town, so I went solo, in a nice pants suit (I guess it was more feminine), and I had a blast. Also, we regularly wore black pants for ritual events, except for initiation, but initiation outfits can be so, um, different, that it doesn't matter at all. As for wearing a full-on suit for, say, a formal chapter meeting, you know, maybe a dozen eyebrows would have been raised, but the other 11 or 12 dozen would have thought, "huh, suit," and that would have been the end of it.

Back to your question - it was very obvious during our recruitment process that we were a diverse sorority, so that's one of the reasons she joined in the first place. Somewhere along the line, it seems that she became uncomfortable with whether or not she was truly accepted in our sisterhood. I wish I knew the whole story, but I don't, so I all I can suggest is going through recruitment, seeing if you can find a house that accepts you as you are (don't bring it up during recruitment, but just be yourself, and if there's a house cool with that, then they might offer you a bi). If you get a bid to a house you think is accepting, if you start to feel uncomfortable, please go address it in a non-confrontational way with the chapter's officers. It may just be paranoia on your part, or it may be that most of the chapter is accepting, but a few people have made you feel uncomfortable, and that needs to be nipped in the bud before it causes lasting damage. Likewise, if the chapter is trying to make you feel welcome, don't test them by pulling any "in your face" stunts, and just be yourself. You are looking for sisterhood, not sexual validation, so if you keep the focus on that, then an accepting chapter may welcome you with open arms.

Good luck with this - I hope there is an organization that is a good match for you!

[ElieM]

Originally Posted by Lightning Bug!

(don't bring it up during recruitment, but just be yourself, and if there's a house cool with that, then they might offer you a bid).

I think that's more correct

[victoriana]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I was going to reply with this, but you beat me to it!

I remember when I attended convetion 5 years ago, there was a sister whom I met and sat close to in nearly all of our general sessions who was in a similar situation as the OP. She would wear a dress shirt with a tie and pants when badge attire was required, but during rituals when we were required to wear our whites, she was wearing a dress.

if you're going to be a sister of a sorority, you should be allowed to be yourself, but be aware that there might be requirements for certain organizations that you must adhere to. And as others have said, depending on where you go to school will depend on how accepting people are of you. Just make sure that you're comfortable and that you're not compromising everything you like and want just to be in a chapter. Your sisters should like you for who you are.

Tau love forever and ever!! P.S. We should talk more

[DubaiSis]

Can "I want to join a sorority" be a more difficult conversation than "I'm gay?" I'd bite the bullet and ask one of your sorority friends. If you state it to them the way you've stated it to us and they are in fact friends, they should be open to your questions.

Your other question from the initial post is a valid one. At some schools your sexual identity would be the least of your problems because being 20, you might as well be 400. But this is going to depend on your school.

If you're at one of the big Florida schools, honestly your chances are probably slim with an NPC sorority, but there may be a non-NPC sorority out there that would give you what you want. I found this link you might find helpful http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Organiza..._and_Bisexual/

Good luck!

[33girl]

Originally Posted by CuriousQueer

(2) Even if I let my gender questions slip to the back of my mind... isn't 20 too old for this?

Absolutely not. Many GC posters were active collegian members when they were over 21, and some even pledged then. If your school has a culture where women join as freshmen, are active as sophomores, and go inactive or quit as juniors or seniors, that means your school's screwed up, not that 20 is too old for Greek life.

Some sororities require all white dress for ritual. You may be able to wear a pants suit, but it still has to be all white. Some other groups wear what we laughingly refer to as "sequined catsuits" (i.e. special ritual wear). In that case, you would have to wear it, no matter how frilly or feminine it is.

[CuriousQueer]

I want to thank everyone who's given me their input.

I suppose I just need to take a deep breath, sit down with a friend or two, and ask them these questions. Also, while looking around the forum I came across a thread about community-based greek letter orgs. That got me thinking. Why am I so interested in being a part of a collegiate sorority? Perhaps, I should also keep myself open to the idea of community-based women's societies. That might actually be more fulfilling over the long term; I don't have much time left as an undergrad.

Again, thanks to everyone who replied. I hope you have a pleasant day!