Little Problem

Azalin · #1 09-08-2006, 11:31 PM

I received a bid from a fraternity, and I'm extremely interested, but I'm an atheist. I didn't want to tell them, because they formally gave me the bid, and it would have ruined the "mood." But does this really matter?

KSUViolet06 · #2 09-08-2006, 11:49 PM

I don't see it being a problem, as long as you're respectful of the other brother's/pledges religious beliefs and don't openly "put down" people who are not.

tunatartare · #3 09-08-2006, 11:51 PM

It depends on the fraternity. If it's Kappa Sigma, then you have to decline a bid. In Kappa Sigma, it is a requirement that you believe in some form of religious deity/higher being. If it's not, then I say go for it. If you're still uncomfortable with it, talk to the president/pledgemaster about it, or it may not be the fraternity for you after all.

KSigkid · #4 09-11-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLPDaisy

It depends on the fraternity. If it's Kappa Sigma, then you have to decline a bid. In Kappa Sigma, it is a requirement that you believe in some form of religious deity/higher being. If it's not, then I say go for it. If you're still uncomfortable with it, talk to the president/pledgemaster about it, or it may not be the fraternity for you after all.

Not even touching the accuracy or inaccuracy of that statement, I'm going to say this in the nicest way possible; please don't speak for my fraternity. You're not a member, and you can't speak for how things are done nationally or on a particular campus.

If the fraternity is Kappa Sig (or any other, for that matter), talk to the brothers in the chapter and explain the situation.

qwerty08642 · #5 09-03-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunatartare

It depends on the fraternity. If it's Kappa Sigma, then you have to decline a bid. In Kappa Sigma, it is a requirement that you believe in some form of religious deity/higher being. If it's not, then I say go for it. If you're still uncomfortable with it, talk to the president/pledgemaster about it, or it may not be the fraternity for you after all.

This is correct. And a dispute over this rule was the basis of a dispute between the national fraternity and its Stanford chapter. You can read about this in the New York Times at:
http://tinyurl.com/noksigatheists

DartmouthPanhel · #6 09-22-2009, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwerty08642

This is correct. And a dispute over this rule was the basis of a dispute between the national fraternity and its Stanford chapter. You can read about this in the New York Times at:
http://tinyurl.com/noksigatheists

I know the OP is 3 years old, but I'll say it anyway:

Most, if not all, GLOs would have a problem with a chapter taking it upon themselves to change ritual or a ceremony like initiation.

Insisting on reading religious content in a ceremony DOES NOT EQUAL expelling members who are atheists.

The religious themes of ceremony/ritual have been a common theme in NPC discussions with various GLOs, but generally the cons for changing ritual (and getting rid of religious references) has to do with honoring tradition, not violating freedom of religion.

Poor Kappa Sig. If someone came on GC and listed all the GLOs with ceremonies based on or including Judeo-Christian ideology whose nationals ask them to perform them as written, you'd have a list a mile long. If this is your issue (and I'm not saying it shouldn't be) take it up with the Greek System in general, because it's far more prevalent than just one GLO.

SouthernSweet · #7 09-09-2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azalin

I received a bid from a fraternity, and I'm extremely interested, but I'm an atheist. I didn't want to tell them, because they formally gave me the bid, and it would have ruined the "mood." But does this really matter?

I wouldn't use the word athiest...I would use the word "agnostic" when explaining to them.

Athiest is more of a negative connotation and goes way beyond not believing in God....I think of Athiests not only believing in the non-existance of God, but dead and determined that no one else should either.

Agnostic is what more so-called "athiests" are....they just don't believe in any type of religion, and believe that you are born, you live, you die, and that's it. There is nothing wrong with that, if that is what you believe.

That is what makes America beautiful.

As you can see, one sounds alot less intimidating than the other.

33girl · #8 09-09-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthernSweet

I wouldn't use the word athiest...I would use the word "agnostic" when explaining to them.

They are not the same thing, and to say that you're one if you really are the other would be lying.

As far as saying "spritually centered", the "spirit" that you "center" yourself around could be the spirit of Adolf Hitler. Again, NOT what he means. He's an atheist, period. That's what he is. He shouldn't PC it up for anyone.

Azalin, just tell the pledgemaster "I'm an atheist, is there going to be any problem with anything in the rituals or the fraternity's central beliefs?" Straight up. He'll tell you yes or no and that'll be that.

alum, I think there is a thread in the KS forum on the higher power question.

honeychile · #9 09-09-2006, 04:22 PM

I agree with 33girl - honesty is the best policy.

There was a time when several GLOs had a religious requirement, either inclusionary or exclusionary. I think most of those have gone by the wayside, but the ritual may still be very much one religion or another, or none at all.

blueangel · #10 09-09-2006, 04:35 PM

I will agree with that advice, 33 Girl ONLY if he has objections to being in the midst of religion. Some atheists do, and that's their right. For instance.. there are some atheists who object to pubic prayer at a town council meeting. They either come a few minutes later, or they walk out of the room during the prayer.

If, however.. it's not a big deal to him as it isn't to some atheists.. he can respectfully stand while others pray... if they do. Or listen to bible quotes.. if they read them.

It really depends on how he feels about it.

"Spiritually centered" merely means that a person either believes in a higher power, but not in organize religion... or... doesn't believe in a higher power but still believes in the spirit of humanity.

As an aside... Somebody once sent me the theory that every internet debate ultimately ends up with somebody mentioning Hitler or Nazi Germany at one point or another. Guess it's true!

33girl · #11 09-09-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueangel

I will agree with that advice, 33 Girl ONLY if he has objections to being in the midst of religion. Some atheists do, and that's their right. For instance.. there are some atheists who object to pubic prayer at a town council meeting. They either come a few minutes later, or they walk out of the room during the prayer.

If, however.. it's not a big deal to him as it isn't to some atheists.. he can respectfully stand while others pray... if they do. Or listen to bible quotes.. if they read them.

It really depends on how he feels about it.

Well, that's what I mean. He can get an answer and then decide for himself. But he needs to get a straight answer, and he can only get that by being straight himself.

And I think "spiritually centered" is one of those phrases that can mean so many things, it basically means nothing - which is why I don't think he should use it.

blueangel · #12 09-09-2006, 04:49 PM

The only reason I said "it depends" -- is if he really doesn't care if his fraternity prays or reads from the bible.. then why make an issue of it?

But again.. if he feels strongly about it then yes, I would agree your route is the best to take.

Actually, "spiritually centered" does mean something. It means you believe in goodness and lead a "centered" life towards it.. whether that is through humanitarianism, through a higher power, or both. But you're right, it's a very broad term.

SoCalGirl · #13 09-09-2006, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariesrising

Agnostic is more "I'll never know what's really out there." while atheist is "there's nothing out there.".

Yeah, athiests believe there is no God or anything similar. Agnostics believe in a "higher power".

lyrica9 · #14 09-09-2006, 06:19 AM

actually, atheists don't believe in the existance of god, while agnostics don't believe in god, but concede that one could exist.

UGAalum94 · #15 09-09-2006, 06:34 AM

Um, going by the words themselves, isn't
agnositic "without knowledge" (meaning you can't really make a claim about the existance of God) and atheist "without god/s*" or "without a belief in god/s*" ?

So, it seems to me that, although agnostic may carry a more positive meaning for believers, it's probably actually wrong to regard it as some kind of sort of atheism lite. Some people know that they don't believe in God, and if they don't believe, they probably shouldn't misrepresent that their position. I think a declaration of "agnositicism" would led to a lot of attempts to convince the new member of religious faith, which I think would be super frustrating to an atheist.

If you know you don't believe, original poster, I'd talk it over with the person in charge of new members or ritual. That person will be able to tell you how much the ideals of the fraternity will be at odds with your lack of belief.

My experience as a Catholic in a group that turned out to have a lot of Southern Baptists was that particular religious beliefs didn't come up that much, but that sharing the same general faith made prayers before meals more comfortable than they would have been for any non-Christian.

(*The wikipedia entry indicated it was from ancient Greek, which is why I'm not capitalizing the G.)