"You're always wearing your letters."

[sugar and spice]

The recent debacle has raised some interesting points that I think should be discussed, namely the concept of "You're always wearing your letters," how we represent our groups and how we deal with other members of our groups.

For background, I'm going to say that when I first became a Greek I was very, very concerned about promoting Greek stereotypes. When I left for sisterhood events, my non-Greek friends would tease me, asking if I was going over to the house to get hazed. Instead of laughing it off I would give them mini lectures on hazing (yes, I am a nerd). I would never say anything that could possibly be misconstrued as being rude or tacky to someone, no matter how much they deserved it, even if I wasn't wearing letters or they didn't know I was in a sorority -- just in case. But now that I've been in my sorority for over a year, I've realized that the difference I can make on people is minimal. I've succeeded in changing some opinions -- my boyfriend, some of his roommate's, a number of my close non-Greek friends -- and I hope that most of these people can walk away with at least a neutral opinion of Greek life. But all of these people were people who know me pretty well, whom I have sat down and had discussions with about Greek life and point by point cleared some of their misconceptions. I've realized that the impact I'm going to make on people who I don't have the chance to do that with is going to be minimal -- especially with those who have major negative preconceptions of Greek life. For example, I will never be able to convince my mom that sororities can be a good thing no matter how hard I try, and she's my mom!

So here's what I want to hear from you:

(1) What do we do about PR? Clearly we need to be concerned about it. Part of what frustrates me about Greek life is that we are held to much higher standards than non-Greeks (check out the punishments for athletic team hazing versus Greek hazing for one example) -- but didn't we sign up for that? Greek life is about upholding high standards, but somehow it's a lot easier to uphold standards that your organization or you yourself are setting than it is to uphold standards that others arbitrarily impose on you. And the fact of the matter is we are human, we can't be perfect, and we are not always going to reach those standards. Some issues obviously are touchier than others. So how do you achieve the balance?

(2) What can you do about those in your organization who you don't think are upholding those standards? I'm not talking about national execs laying down the law, I'm talking about us, as actives and alums, enforcing the behavior of other actives and alums? Is it okay to tell people that they're embarassing your organization? Is it okay to tell other people how to act or what to say when it reflects on your organization? Or do we need to realize that, even when it makes our beloved Alpha Beta Gamma look bad, not everyone has the same standards for behavior? I haven't struggled with this issue much myself since the number of Tri Delt GCs are low and we tend to agree with each other most of the time but I know other groups deal with it pretty often and not just on issues like this, so I want to hear about it.

[33girl]

Everyone has a different standard of behavior. It varies from person to person and especially campus to campus - things that would be social suicide at Clarion are musts at Radford, and vice versa, etc etc.

I try to live my life the best I can. I would do that whether I was in a sorority or not. If you are in a chapter where you feel you are doing that and are still being criticized about your behavior or demeanor, it is probably not the place for you.

As far as changing attitudes, from what I read on here, the Greek/non-Greek divide is much sharper than it used to be, and the non-Greeks seem to have a sense of "entitlement" to their opinion. For example - my non-Greek friends would have NEVER said anything like "are you going to get hazed", even in jest - it would have been considered unspeakably rude, and it would have been understandable if I never talked to them again. Even if it wasn't for them, they respected my choice, and that seems to be gone. IMO it's part of all the politically correct BS that has infested universities. This mindset wouldn't care if Greeks never did anything bad, they would still be upset by the fact that they exist. Until it's made clear that diversity means respecting everyone, not ripping on someone because they are from a perceived "priveleged class", this will go on and nothing can be done about it.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
(1) What do we do about PR? Clearly we need to be concerned about it. Part of what frustrates me about Greek life is that we are held to much higher standards than non-Greeks (check out the punishments for athletic team hazing versus Greek hazing for one example) -- but didn't we sign up for that? Greek life is about upholding high standards, but somehow it's a lot easier to uphold standards that your organization or you yourself are setting than it is to uphold standards that others arbitrarily impose on you. And the fact of the matter is we are human, we can't be perfect, and we are not always going to reach those standards. Some issues obviously are touchier than others. So how do you achieve the balance?

(2) What can you do about those in your organization who you don't think are upholding those standards? I'm not talking about national execs laying down the law, I'm talking about us, as actives and alums, enforcing the behavior of other actives and alums? Is it okay to tell people that they're embarassing your organization? Is it okay to tell other people how to act or what to say when it reflects on your organization? Or do we need to realize that, even when it makes our beloved Alpha Beta Gamma look bad, not everyone has the same standards for behavior? I haven't struggled with this issue much myself since the number of Tri Delt GCs are low and we tend to agree with each other most of the time but I know other groups deal with it pretty often and not just on issues like this, so I want to hear about it.

1) I wouldn't be concerned about PR if every member of your organization is made aware of your standards at the time of recruitment, and then taught those standards through the education process. The problems with the behaviour always seem to center around hazing, alcohol/drugs, GPA/anti-intellectualism. If a chapter's culture counters these pitfalls, and the chapter has a good PR chair, wear your letters often, and wear it with a smile.

2) If you need to address chapter members not upholding standards, I strongly (and I do mean strongly) recomend that a plan of action first be devised with alumni advisors. To be effective, you may need to play "ggod cop, bad cop" and its always better for the alumni to be the bad cop. All chapters should have a standards committee, or a grievance committee in place. Also, chapter by-laws should clearly address such infractions before a member is charged with them. All such by-laws have to be applied to all members equally, and strictly enforced.

If you are not already doing this, the implementation of enforced standards will kill chapter morale for a few weeks, but then it will climb to a point where it is better than ever. You really want alumni to be the "bad cops" in this scenario.

We have an obligation, through a democratically agreed upon method, to tell all of our GLO's members when they are dropping the ball. In cases where they are "under the influence", we may be preventing a tragicly life transforming event.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by 33girl

As far as changing attitudes, from what I read on here, the Greek/non-Greek divide is much sharper than it used to be, and the non-Greeks seem to have a sense of "entitlement" to their opinion. For example - my non-Greek friends would have NEVER said anything like "are you going to get hazed", even in jest - it would have been considered unspeakably rude, and it would have been understandable if I never talked to them again. Even if it wasn't for them, they respected my choice, and that seems to be gone. IMO it's part of all the politically correct BS that has infested universities. This mindset wouldn't care if Greeks never did anything bad, they would still be upset by the fact that they exist. Until it's made clear that diversity means respecting everyone, not ripping on someone because they are from a perceived "priveleged class", this will go on and nothing can be done about it.

The divide between Greeks and anti-Greeks is pretty big at my school, although clearly I can't speak for all of them. Anti-Greek sentiment is high, and I can't always say that there is no reason for it (hazing is a problem among the fraternities here, alcohol is big within the Greek system -- although alcohol is just as big with non-Greeks too), but more often than not there is a lot of non-Greek judging of the system because not enough people are familiar with it. All they see is the alcoholic side of things, and as my boyfriend has pointed out, there hasn't been much of an attempt from the Greek system to reach out towards non-Greeks, although the same is true in reverse.

I think this is one of the biggest problems with the Greek system, at least here: most people don't have enough experience with the Greek system to know what it's about, so they're forced to rely on the stereotypes from 90210 and Sweet Valley University. But there's only so long that Greeks feel like being the "teachers" and ambassadors and spokespeople for what Greek life is about before they get sick of it. We can't be the model citizens all of the time. This isn't exactly a rare theme -- any time you're part of a misunderstood group you'll find the same issue. I've seen it in feminism, relating to racial or religious groups, various political movements -- it's tough to spend all your time worrying about how people perceive you.

[sugar and spice]

Also, as for the second point, I brought it up because I know at least a couple of those who posted in the GDI thread got PMs from other members of their groups who berated them for participating. I'm torn on what I think about this: on one hand, I'm sure we've all been embarassed by the way other members of our organizations (on GC or otherwise) have acted; on the other, it's not like people posting in those threads didn't know their organization's policies or expectations . . . they just chose to ignore them. I'm just not sure how I feel about when it becomes too presumptuous to tell your brothers and sisters what to say or how to act, so I'm waiting for somebody to make an argument that makes sense to me.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by sugar and spice
The divide between Greeks and anti-Greeks is pretty big at my school, although clearly I can't speak for all of them. Anti-Greek sentiment is high, and I can't always say that there is no reason for it (hazing is a problem among the fraternities here, alcohol is big within the Greek system -- although alcohol is just as big with non-Greeks too), but more often than not there is a lot of non-Greek judging of the system because not enough people are familiar with it. All they see is the alcoholic side of things, and as my boyfriend has pointed out, there hasn't been much of an attempt from the Greek system to reach out towards non-Greeks, although the same is true in reverse.

I think this is one of the biggest problems with the Greek system, at least here: most people don't have enough experience with the Greek system to know what it's about, so they're forced to rely on the stereotypes from 90210 and Sweet Valley University. But there's only so long that Greeks feel like being the "teachers" and ambassadors and spokespeople for what Greek life is about before they get sick of it. We can't be the model citizens all of the time. This isn't exactly a rare theme -- any time you're part of a misunderstood group you'll find the same issue. I've seen it in feminism, relating to racial or religious groups, various political movements -- it's tough to spend all your time worrying about how people perceive you.

I think that your heightened sensitivity is heavily influenced by the Madison Greek System, as well as by people with whom you directly socialize. At FSU, I do not remember independents having anti-greek sentiment in any significant number. I don't believe that your perception of pervasive greek-independent hostility is an endemic trait with most Greek systems.

As for the gdigirlfriend thread, I found it to be perversely cathartic.

[sairose]

It's simple....but here's something we try to do that works as far as our image/stereotype goes:

Be so nice to everyone that no one could say ANYTHING about you.

And just remember that every thing you do, you are representing your GLO.

Think of how you would like for your GLO to be viewed and act accordingly.

It makes a big difference! We're nice to everyone, and as a result, most everyone likes us.

People will also defend GLOs when they know of ones that are cool.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by sairose
It's simple....but here's something we try to do that works as far as our image/stereotype goes:

Be so nice to everyone that no one could say ANYTHING about you.

And just remember that every thing you do, you are representing your GLO.

Think of how you would like for your GLO to be viewed and act accordingly.

It makes a big difference! We're nice to everyone, and as a result, most everyone likes us.

People will also defend GLOs when they know of ones that are cool.

I totally agree. But, is that realistic?

[sairose]

Originally posted by Dionysus
I totally agree. But, is that realistic?

More so than you'd think. I mean no it won't completely eliminate the stereotypes...but it dues help A LOT.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by sairose
More so than you'd think. I mean no it won't completely eliminate the stereotypes...but it dues help A LOT.

I don’t think non-greeks changing their opinion on Greeks is unrealistic as Greeks EVERYWHERE being so nice to everyone that no one could say ANYTHING about them.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Dionysus
I don’t think non-greeks changing their opinion on Greeks is unrealistic as Greeks EVERYWHERE being so nice to everyone that no one could say ANYTHING about them.

This assumes that independents who "hate" greeks have rationally formed opinions, and will continue to do so. In my opinion, there is a point where you simply no longer worry about what other people think.

[Dionysus]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
This assumes that independents who "hate" greeks have rationally formed opinions, and will continue to do so. In my opinion, there is a point where you simply no longer worry about what other people think.

That was the point that I was trying to make. You said it better. Many greeks don't care what other people think of them. Because of that, I think it is unrealistic to think that Greeks will dispel negative stereotype by being so nice to everyone that no one could say anything about them.

[PhiPsiRuss]

Originally posted by Dionysus
That was the point that I was trying to make. You said it better. Many greeks don't care what other people think of them. Because of that, I think it is unrealistic to think that Greeks will dispel negative stereotype by being so nice to everyone that no one could say anything about them.

My point was not that Greeks simply don't care, my point is that there comes a time where you are staring the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility square in the eyes, and that extra effort to win over irrationally jaded independents is simply not worth the effort.

Are some Greeks simply not interested in what other people think? Sure, and that's wrong. But I don't believe that the correct approach is to worry about what every single person thinks. This, in my opinion, is an exercise in futility, and will only demoralize those who walk down that path.

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by russellwarshay
I think that your heightened sensitivity is heavily influenced by the Madison Greek System, as well as by people with whom you directly socialize. At FSU, I do not remember independents having anti-greek sentiment in any significant number. I don't believe that your perception of pervasive greek-independent hostility is an endemic trait with most Greek systems.

As for the gdigirlfriend thread, I found it to be perversely cathartic.

I think that strong divisions between Greeks and anti-Greeks are fairly common at a lot of schools, though by no means at all of them. Of course, Wisconsin has almost the perfect setting for such a divide: a campus with a strong tradition of liberalism (which often translates to anti-Greekism), and large populations of both

1) small-town Wisconsin kids whose ideas about Greeks are generally limited to what they read and watch on TV/movies
and
2) upper-class East "coasties," North Shorers and affluent Milwaukee suburban kids who tend to go Greek and perpetuate at least the stereotype of a lot of Greeks being upper-middle class and sometimes somewhat spoiled

PLUS not only is there a division between Greeks and non-Greeks, but there is a "Coastie"/"Sconnie" divide where the Coasties are stereotyped as being very Burberry scarves/Coach purses/North Face jackets and hating on Wisconsin, and the Wisconsin kids stereotyped as dairyland hicks who drink too much beer. And since Coasties are lumped in with the Greeks and Sconnies lumped in with non-Greeks, both stereotypes are applied liberally to those groups as well. Of course most of the time the rivalry is all in fun, but every once in a while it gets nasty.

Originally posted by sairose
It's simple....but here's something we try to do that works as far as our image/stereotype goes:

Be so nice to everyone that no one could say ANYTHING about you.

And just remember that every thing you do, you are representing your GLO.

Think of how you would like for your GLO to be viewed and act accordingly.

It makes a big difference! We're nice to everyone, and as a result, most everyone likes us.

People will also defend GLOs when they know of ones that are cool.

This does its part to eradicate one Greek stereotype -- that of the stuck-up Greek -- but only furthers another -- that of the fake Greek. People can tell when you're playing fake nicey-nice and they look down on that just as much as they look down on the bratty ones. And when it comes down to either blasting a GDI for their anti-Greek drivel or just forcing yourself to shut up, you forget that both will accomplish the same thing. If you blast them, they have proof that Greeks are bad people. If you don't say anything, they go on believing their anti-Greek drivel. And, well, if you try to correct their misconceptions, unless you are friends with them or know them well, often they will assume that you're presumptuous or just as stuck-up as they might think if you had blasted them, because they KNOW Greeks are bad because their best friend's cousin's roommate as a Kappa Tappa Kegga in 1984 and they got shut down for hazing, and clearly your experience in your GLO has no relevance to real life whatsoever. People don't like being corrected by people they don't know well, especially when they're wrong.

Not to mention the fact that most anti-Greeks formed their opinion years ago, have spent years perpetuating that belief and it takes more than a chance encounter with a nice one to change their minds. I can't even count the number of times people have said this (or variations) to me: "Yeah, but you're not like the rest of them -- you're a NICE sorority girl!"

I'm definitely not saying don't bother being nice, because obviously every little bit helps. But as I said before, the only way you're really going to change an anti-Greek's mind is by becoming friends with them and showing them what Greeks are really like, and as superheroic as we Greeks sometimes are, we can't become friends with everybody. And honestly, I don't know if I would want to be friends with a lot of the anti-Greeks I meet, whose opinions seem to be based mostly on either arrogance or stupidity. I can deal with those whose opinions are based on naivete, but stupidity and especially arrogance are another story entirely.

[Glitter650]

I think basically what Sugar Spice is trying to get at is to what degree should the Fraternity/Sorority be able to say "oh don't say that, you're representing our organization ? I mean personally I would take a look at your vows/constitution as long as you're not violating it in ANY way.... then the sorority really has no right to regulate on if you flip off the person who cut you off with a letter decal on the back of your car... could it give them ammunition to trash talk greeks since you flipped them off and they noticed your window decal, well, yeah, but greeks are human and other people should realize that. We can't be perfect all the time just to try and fix the stereotypes that exist about us. I'm not saying don't worry about it at all, but just because I'm a Phi Sig.... (or a Kappa, or a Pi Phi, or whatever) doesn't mean I'm perfect, and if we all go around acting like we're perfect wouldn't that make people talk shit too ? ( IE " All the greeks think they are soooo perfect, always being sooo nice... probably fake snobby biyatches", you get the picture) I say as long as you are being true to the vow that you took (I don't recall mine saying I must be nice at ALLL times) don't worry about it, if you get a chance to dispell some stereotype by all means talk it up but organizations can't regulate on all behavior all the time.