The lawyers in the Van Dam murder trial KNEW their client was guilty. They were in the process of striking a deal with the DA (revealing where the body was to avoid the death penalty). The body of Danielle was found and the trial ensued. O'Reilly charges that the defense lied and therefore should be disbarred. Nimmo argues it was the responsibility of the two lawyers to present the best defense for their client even though in this instance, they misled the judge and jury
I happen to agree with O'Reilly on this. I believe it's another example of our justice system being twisted and lawyers manipulating the "letter" of the law. Would love to hear law students' and armchair lawyers' take on this.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,63424,00.html
OK, counselor, tell me where I'm wrong.
WILLIAM NIMMO, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you're wrong in the sense that I don't think you understand what the duty of a defense lawyer is. That rule that you read, 5200, that applies to situations -- you're not supposed to tell the judge you need a continuance for a particular reason and then in reality you're going golfing, things like that.
That doesn't have to do with your duties and obligations to defend an individual at trial. If you read the case of U.S. versus Wade, which I think is a -- like a 1967 case, an opinion of Justice White in there explains part of the evolving duties and obligations of a defense lawyer.
Our job, regardless of what we know, regardless of what our client knows, is to put on a vigorous defense, which means cross-examining witnesses even we know are truthful, putting up scenarios that we know might even not be correct.
I mean, this is not just -- it's not just what we're supposed to do. It's what by law and by the Constitution of the United States we have to do.
O'REILLY: Now I'm going to tell the audience that I disagree with your interpretation of the rule. I don't see anything like that near the rule. So you're telling me that it's your duty, counselor, to go into court and lie in defense of your client. You're telling me that?
NIMMO: Well, I -- no, I don't think you should go in there and lie on behalf of your client.
O'REILLY: Oh, you don't? Well, that's exactly what these two counselors...
NIMMO: No, I don't think so.
O'REILLY: ... did. They said to the jury...
NIMMO: No, they didn't.
O'REILLY: ... flat out -- yes, they did. They said flat out that the killer of little Danielle could have been let in by the Van Dams, part of a group of strangers hanging around with them for sexual purposes. They knew that scenario was not true, counselor, yet they proposed it to the jury.
That is a lie.
NIMMO: Bill, I'm telling you the Constitution of the United States says...
O'REILLY: Don't tell me about the Constitution.
NIMMO: ... that's your duty.
O'REILLY: Tell me about what I just told you.
NIMMO: No, I mean...
O'REILLY: We're talking man to man here. I just gave that scenario to you. You know it's true. You know it was a lie. You just said you can't lie. He did lie, and now you're throwing me the Constitution. Deal with this directly.
NIMMO: Bill, Bill O'Reilly, just because you have a voice here, that doesn't mean that you've got to go against the Constitution. We're mandated by the Constitution to give an effective, aggressive defense. So please, read that case.
O'REILLY: Counselor, deal, deal...
NIMMO: Bill, honestly, read that case.
O'REILLY: ... with my question.
NIMMO: You don't understand it.
O'REILLY: These -- Don't understand, baloney.
NIMMO: I'm trying to tell you...
O'REILLY: These lawyers lied. They lied in the courtroom.
NIMMO: Oh, that's...
O'REILLY: You told me they're not allowed to lie...
NIMMO: No.
O'REILLY: ... and they lied. I just told you how they did it, and are you denying they did that?
NIMMO: I'm not denying that they maybe put up a defense that they didn't believe in.
O'REILLY: They lied, counselor.
NIMMO: That's their duty and their obligation.
O'REILLY: What is it about the word "lied" you can't understand?
NIMMO: What is it about the word "Constitution" that you don't understand? This is a -- it's a Constitution-mandated obligation. You need to read that case so you can understand it.
O'REILLY: Crap. Hiding behind the Constitution...
NIMMO: If we...
O'REILLY: ... is disgraceful.
NIMMO: Hiding behind the Constitution?
O'REILLY: This is a lie. They brought a lie into this courtroom, counselor. You're justifying it. A little girl was slaughtered.
NIMMO: No, I...
O'REILLY: You think it's OK to make up a lie to try to mislead the jury. They knew this guy did it. They knew where he buried her. They tried to get a plea bargain, and you say it's fine. That's an outrage. An outrage.
NIMMO: Mr. O'Reilly, if you really believe that, you need to get a grip on it, because it's the Constitution. We can't go against the Constitution in the courts. If you want to change the law and change the Constitution, do it, but that's what we have to do.
O'REILLY: You don't know what the Constitution is. It doesn't say a defense attorney is entitled to lie...
NIMMO: I know exactly what it says.
O'REILLY: ... to try to get his client off. It doesn't say that. If you can show me where it says it, I'll give any charity you want $10,000. The Constitution does not say...
NIMMO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'REILLY: ... a defense attorney is entitled to lie to get his client off when he knows the client is guilty.
NIMMO: You need to read Justice White's opinion in the U.S. versus Wade, you really do, 1967.
O'REILLY: All right. Fine. I think everybody out there -- look, I'll tell you one thing. I appreciate you coming on, because I know you know how angry I am, and I'm not taking it out on you.
NIMMO: Yes, you are angry. (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
O'REILLY: I think you are so wrong...
NIMMO: And I can see why you'd be angry.
O'REILLY: ... I think it's -- you're so wrong it's painful. I think that this is the most egregious example of misconduct on the part of attorneys I've ever seen in my life. We have proved this. This is beyond dispute. Yet you are putting up the Constitution to say these men had a right to try to mislead this jury and that judge to get a child killer back on the street where he might do it again, and that's not what the Constitution says, counselor.
I'll let the audience decide. I appreciate you coming on and taking the heat. It's not against you. I do think you're very wrong, but I respect your opinion.
NIMMO: I don't believe it's against me, and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to set you straight.
O'REILLY: All right, counselor, thank you.
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