Drinking in Letters . .. Damned either way?

James · #1 07-20-2002, 05:28 PM

There have been several threads on the issue of whether Greeks should wear letters while drinking, or whether letters should be on glasses that have an alcohol cannotation: You can have letters on a water bottle but not Champagne Flutes.

It seems almost universal that everyone agreed that drinking while in letters was bad.

After reading the threads I have some philosophical problems that I was hoping y'all could help me solve. ITs caused me some cognitive dissonance as I find that the reality is not meeting the image.

1. We know that drinking is not unethical, and not "bad" so why is not approproate to drink while in letters? Did drinking become "dirty" (like having sex with a close cousin) when I wasn't looking?

2. So since drinking is not unethical or "bad" then it wouldn't be against our core values, correct? Therefore doing a perfectly acceptable activity doesn't represent our organizations badly?

3. And what about mixers? There is an event we go to only because we are Greek and only because we belong to a specific organization. Its a fundamental expression of ourselves as social organizations. Shouldn't we wear letters there? We do make party shirts . . .

4. Or, are we so concerned about the drinking-in-letters issue because we want to falsely advertise ourselves? To do actions and then claim that we don't do them? Isn't that a funamental hypocrisy?

(edited to add)

So help a brother out and explain this stuff to me . . .. .

Kevin · #2 07-20-2002, 06:03 PM

James, I think the main reason we are discouraged to wear letters when drinking is good PR.

The Greek system (probably deservedly) has the reputation for consuming far more alcohol than GDI's. For many, that's the only face of Greek Life that they are familiar with.

So why reinforce this image in others that they would find objectionable? My chapter in particular has recruited some very high quality men by showing them that alcohol is not an integral part of our brotherhood. So many are turned off before we even get the chance to talk to them.

I don't think it's dirty, unclean or uncouth. It's simply for image.

33girl · #3 07-20-2002, 06:29 PM

IMO...fundamental hypocrisy. It makes us look like we think we are better than everyone else. That's what turns people off the most about Greeks...the snobbism aspect. Not drinking or hazing.

I know at small schools, everyone knows what group you are in whether you're in letters or not. So if you get drunk and act like an ass, no one is going to say "well, 33 wasn't wearing letters, so I guess that means Greek life is wonderful." The reason people stopped wearing letters to bars in Clarion was not a "moral" or "values" issue, but primarily due to an administration and town that hated Greeks (regardless of what they did) and started targeting people who had letters on. (Greek profiling, if you will) Meanwhile there could be a GDI 3 feet away puking his guts out with a needle broken off in his arm and the cops would walk past him.

If you would be ashamed to do something IN letters, you shouldn't do it OUT of letters either. Period.

James · #4 07-20-2002, 06:46 PM

I am tending to agree with 33girl here ktsnake, maintaining an image (PR) different from our actual identity is creating a facade(lying). IF we need to lie, that is not a good thing.

I have scene chapters present the whole gentleman, athelete, leader, scholar approach to PNM's when they are uniformly out of shape, aren't involved in leadership positions, and have collectively low GPA's, . . . it would be a surprised group pledges that bought that PR.

So is that the position of the don't-wear-letters-while-drinking-crew? That we should deceive for the sake of image?

Quote:

Originally posted by ktsnake
James, I think the main reason we are discouraged to wear letters when drinking is good PR.

The Greek system (probably deservedly) has the reputation for consuming far more alcohol than GDI's. For many, that's the only face of Greek Life that they are familiar with.

So why reinforce this image in others that they would find objectionable? My chapter in particular has recruited some very high quality men by showing them that alcohol is not an integral part of our brotherhood. So many are turned off before we even get the chance to talk to them.

I don't think it's dirty, unclean or uncouth. It's simply for image.

Kevin · #5 07-20-2002, 06:53 PM

Quote:

I am tending to agree with 33girl here ktsnake, maintaining an image (PR) different from our actual identity is creating a facade(lying). IF we need to lie, that is not a good thing.

Off hand I can think of at least two of my current brothers (probably a lot more) that were very turned off by fraternities that promoted alcohol.

If they had met a drunk brother (in letters) at Bennigans during rush or something they probably would not have even considered my fraternity.

It's not a facade, it's just something that we can do to control our image. Since no one ever sees us when we're out doing 'reputable' activities I believe it's sound practice not to 'represent' when you're doing something that's not considered reputable.

It's such an easy thing to do that I can see no reason why you would do otherwise.

33girl · #6 07-20-2002, 07:01 PM

The last I checked, drinking is legal for those over 21, and I assume Bennigan's cards...why on earth, then, is that not considered "reputable"? I'm not talking about being sloppy drunk, I just mean having a beer in public.

If your brother would have been so turned off by that, how did he feel when he joined and people drank? To me it would be like telling Suzy Swim Team while she is going through rush what an interesting sport it is, how we all go to the meets and would love to support her when we really could care less - how would she feel if she joined a group that didn't live up to their advertising? I know a lot of morality garbage gets slapped onto alcohol because of our Puritan hangover (oxymoron LOL) but honestly, it's the same thing.

PhiSigGabs · #7 07-20-2002, 07:07 PM

Our chapter is very strict with not wearing letters in social environments. Even to the point that if our lavaliers are not turned around or taken off, that sister will be called to J-Board.

Its almost funny when we got to socials and the brothers we are accompanying are sportin' their letters like it's their job. In all of your opinions, do you think sororities are stricter about this policy then fraternities? Just curious

"It's a PHI SIG thing!"

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints...the sinners have MUCH more fun"

ROWDYsister · #8 07-20-2002, 07:19 PM

I think not wearing letters when you're drinking is less about the actual act of drinking than the stupid things you might do as a result of drinking. I'm not saying everyone gets totally trashed, belligerent, or stupid when they drink, but saying "Don't wear letters when you drink" is just a preventative measure. It's too easy for others to label an organization based on the acts of a few members.

I think it's fine to wear letters if you're having a glass of wine with dinner but having hunch punch or playing beer pong at a party is another story.

Kevin · #9 07-20-2002, 07:21 PM

Sloppy drunk aside... It's still an issue of PR. The culture here in the Bible Belt may be different from you cEEty folk..

From my point of view, we still suffer from a very puritanical approach to this.

To address the issue of the brothers in my house that found otherwise once they joined... They were first open to the idea of our group because we were the only one that they thought wouldn't think strangely of them if they chose not to drink. One brother in particular stresses during recruitment with certain guys that he'll be the one at our parties bonging Dr. Thunder. For some, this approach is very positive.

Otherwise, it's just an image thing. If they see you drinking and that's all they see you do (because you do it in a public, conspicuous place) than that must be all that you ever do, right? A lot of folks think that way and we can't be blind to that.

My school in particular is also dry. A picture of a guy in his letters with a beer in his hand could get us all in serious trouble since my school consideres 3+ people to be an organization sponsored event (but please don't factor this into my argument, it's our situation and doesn't really factor into the overall situation).

At any rate, it's a decision for each chapter to make based on what their individual conditions are. For my chapter it would certainly not be a good thing to drink in public in our letters.. For others, it's simply promoting Greek Life. Who am I to say if it's right or wrong for someone else?

sairose · #10 07-20-2002, 07:46 PM

I personally support not wearing your letters when you drink. I don't drink for personal and religious reasons, so I don't support alcohol at all. Either way, GLOs are "famous" for drinking and partying, and that isn't really fair because not all groups/chapters are like that. But let's say a certain fraternity on campus has many brothers who get drunk all the time and do stupid things. People will find this out, and many won't take them seriously. It doens't represent Greek life in a positive light.

Also, many students like myself are opposed to alcohol for various reasons. If the GLOs on their campus are always drinking and are well-known only for that, they wouldn't want to join. On my campus, the fraternities that aren't famous for being drunk all the time are the one that most independants respect the most. Whether you think it's fair or not, it makes sense. Greek life doesn't have a very good image as it is; why make it worse?

My point is, drinking in your letters is like wearing a banner that says, "hey all I do is drink!", whether that's the truth or not. SAIs are permitted to drink in our letters, but I would be highly offended if any of my sisters did.

Yet another two cents from sairose.

DeltaSig · #11 07-20-2002, 09:18 PM

I think its a matter of chapter decision and a on-basis measure in which it may be or not be appropriate to drink with letters on. At both of the campus's I have attend both of my chapters accepted drinking with letters on. It was more of a campus wide acceptence, most greeks(IFC only) wore bid shirts..etc...while at bars, it was never a huge issue at all. It wasn't considered taboo...but I definitely could see the fallout from wearing letters. Or maybe its a Texas thing I don't know....?? The thing I found very ironic was that the fraternity that supposedly never could wear letters while drinking and that were supposed to be the upholding gentlemen of the campus (were always getting arrested at their house for out of control behavoir because most of them were drunk and were synonamous for DWI's Etc.). I think that did more harm to their reputation than drinking with letters on. But I all in all would say it has to come down to every individual chapter to make that decision..not everyone is irresponsible and if members of your greek org can't make a sound judgement not to act retarded while wearing letters and drinking, then they really shouldn't be able to wear them at all..

AlphaXi126 · #12 07-20-2002, 09:37 PM

I was reading through all the posts on this subject and was suprised about all of the views about drinking in your letters.
The way that I look at it ( and I'm not saying drinking is wrong b/c I personally like to drink) is that out of respect for your creed, whatever fraternity that you are in, you should not drink in your letters. I mean, how hard is it to put on another shirt. The oath that you took during initiation, I'm sure, has to do something with bettering your self and your community in some sort of way...So this is the thing, out of respect for your founders (who I think were considered gentlemen on their campus and did not have the intentions of the meaning behind their greek letters being disrespected by things of unimportance like alcohol...) , I would not drink in letters...
Also, many universities in our country are dismissing Greeks on campus because of what they see, and what they see are Greek men and women drinking and causing trouble in their letters...could this possibly mean that you are denying the right to be Greek to future generations...and even possibly your sons and daughters. I think we should all think how much our letters mean to us, and the values behind them...before we drink in our letters again...It's just respect

BUT thats just my opinion on things...hopefully someone out there agrees with me ...

TKEmz894 · #13 07-20-2002, 10:14 PM

Well in South Louisiana drinking starts young because its primarily Catholic, and the laws arent enforced, so all the guys drink in letters, and only Phi Mu on our campus does out of the three sororitys. But they are feeling alot of pressure from the other more Baptist chapters in the state. But I laugh when the sororitys tell us we are disrespecting our org and our chapter.....Because its such a joke, our founding Alumni group drinks with us in our letters.....So it obviously doesnt bother them.....As for others having a problem who cares, anyone who is in a Bar is probably drinking too, so who are they to say anything. And I dont think it gives us bad PR, because most guys who rush see us huddled by the Bar and say who are all those guys in the Red Jerseys downing beers and hitting on women.....and we have alot of those guys see all of this and then come ask us how to join....I know that sounds weird, but it happens alot. So I dont think it hurts us....The only time we would rather them not wear letters when they are out is when we get in fights, and we have them take them off so the cops dont think it had something to do with the entire Fraternity, and report us to school.....So I got no problem with it....Plus all those girls that dont wear letters, and go out all dressed up....any person can spot them by what they are wearing, cause its usually the latest thing from the limited or some other store they all shop at, and then the fact that they are usually only talking to the Fraternity guys, or Football, or Baseball players is another tip off....Its all such a joke.....................

AlphaXi126 · #14 07-20-2002, 10:46 PM

Hey TKEmz, I'm sorry, but I had to respond...when I was referring to founders I was meaning the ones that founded your WHOLE FRATERNITY...not just the one at your school...And another thing, you say that your drinking and talking to women gets lots of guys to see your fraternity, my question is...do you feel comfortable calling a someone a brother on the basis that he can get women and drink...? Just a thought...

Another thing, you say that people know who sorority women are because they were "the limited" and hang all over the fraternity guys...WOW what a sorority stereotype again...You would think being a fellow greek, you would give these ladies some credit...

Not trying to be rude, just trying to see if being greek to you means drinking/getting women...or having awesome friendships and sharing your values with others...? Let me know, I'm interested to understand your thoughts.

nyrdrms · #15 07-20-2002, 11:42 PM

I, along with several others here, believe that the issue of drinking in letters is more of a PR thing than anything else. No offense, but I don't want to call someone sister who does nothing but get wasted and make a spectical of herself. I personally see nothing wrong with someone of age indulging in a drink or two, but how do you monitor how many drinks someone can have while in letters? Everyone has their own limit, and a no tolerance of drinking in letters prevents having to make that judgement call.

The object of G Phi is to develop the highest type of womanhood....I would think that falling down drunk while publicly promoting the sorority would be to disregard that object.