Hazing

KoolAidMan · #1 06-19-2002, 01:04 PM

I would just like to get some of your thoughts on hazing. I think there are many schools of thought on hazing. When most people think of hazing they think of vile and exertive predicaments, but in some cases there are things that are considered hazing that aren't all that bad.

Whenever I pledged I went into it with three rules that I would not allow anyone to break. These were rules that I figured if I had to go through with to get into the fraternity it would comprimise my integrity as an individual. I was fortunate enough that these rules were not infringed upon or even came into question. I was just wondering if this was a universal feeling.

I have seen some great arguments against hazing and I do agree with them, but I also see some benefits with hazing (in small doses). I think that hazing makes an individual stronger and a pledge class stronger. I think hazing isn't needed if you're a chapter with large numbers and comfortable environment where problems are non-existent. But if you're a chapter that must deal with problems nearly every semester when nothing flies as smoothly as is planned, then hazing may be necessary in the pledge process. It's a good way to cull the chaff from the wheat. I think that if a pledge is willing to endure some stress as a pledge then they will be more likely to combat the stresses that struggling chapters face on a day to day basis instead of bailing on the chapter. I know that I my chapter has faced critical points where the fate of the chapter was in our hands and if being hazed would have made us better prepared for it then I would have totally been up to the challenge.

Maybe I'm talking out my ass, but I was just wanting to get some views on it from some of you guys. Now, when I referred to hazing I was speaking about minimal mental challenges as opposed to back road drop off, paddlings, or any unnecessary excessive battering. Now, I don't really condone hazing, but I'm not against it either. If anything this will all create a good topic to discuss.

Kool Aid Man

The1calledTKE · #2 06-19-2002, 01:08 PM

In my opinion anything that can cause harm to a person physically or mentally is hazing. Learning the TKE guide is not hazing but in some peoples view having pledges learn the history is hazing. Even calling pledges, pledges, is hazing and thats just plain crazy.

hoosier · #3 06-20-2002, 11:24 PM

There doesn't seem to be any allowable amount of hazing.

I can't see where a problemed chapter could improve itself by hazing.

All problems come from small numbers, and certainly saying "we only haze a little" would not help attract more pledges.

Of course, the victims of hazing might stick around at least one year, so they could "get even" on next year's pledges.

Tell us your three rules.

Tell us what a little hazing involves.

teke4ever · #4 06-21-2002, 10:05 AM

Hazing is just wrong.

The1calledTKE · #5 06-21-2002, 10:26 AM

Koolaid you are aware people from IHQ do read this board. Don't reflect on your chapter badly or cause IHQ to investigate your chapter.

KoolAidMan · #6 06-22-2002, 12:08 AM

I will not post my 3 rules because those are MY rules. It was something I held for personal beliefs. It was something that got me through pledging, as well as my pledge brothers.

Now when I started this hazing thread I did it to start up a decent conversation with some of my brothers from other chapters and so far it seems to be working. I wasn't trying to start a controversy and I'm afraid that's going to happen. I certainly wasn't speaking on behalf of my chapter so if it came off that way I'm sorry.

I am speaking on behalf of myself and as I stated in a previous post, I do not support hazing as a point of negative aspects that come with it, but I'd be lieing if I said that hazing doesn't have positive aspects. As long as I don't act on those beliefs I am safe with IHQ, but with my chapter. I have talked with brothers from many chapters and from different fraternities. I do know that the ones that were hazed (and quite harshly; stuff I'd not want done to me or to others) appreciated it more, in some aspects, and I feel are more devoted as a result. I feel that anything that causes an "initiate" to become more devoted to their fraternity once initiated then it can't be all that bad. Once again that's just MY personal belief. This is my "honest conviction" and as such I ask that you respect it whether you agree to it or not.

To me 'a little hazing' (as referred to by a previous poster) involves mandatory study hours. Whether they want it/need it or not. Study hours should be enforced strictly and if an 'initiate' fails to meet the study requirements they should not be allowed entrance into the chapter. 'A little hazing' involves little to no 'inititate' participation at chapter social functions. I feel this way because I would rather an 'initiate' to enjoy the brothers of the fraternity as opposed to the parties they have. These 'initiates' are the ones I feel do not stick around when the chapter really needs them the most. 'A little hazing' involves a large amount of participation on behalf of the 'initiates' at all philanthropy and fund-raising events. 'A little hazing' involves learning the histories of both IHQ, but also the chapter. I look at history as to more of prevention of bad things to come in the future. I make sure that all 'initiates' of our chapter remember the bad times of our chapter more than the good times as a means of preventing it from happening again. 'A little hazing' refers to brothers actively being a part of the 'initiates' personal lives early on in the program to make sure that they are ready for the task of being a brother. Sometimes we learn the negative side of 'initiates' after they've already been initiated. These things are necessary to make good brothers I feel. Maybe it's just me, but then again I try to look at the root of the problem and go from there. Gimme some input on this please.

hoosier · #7 06-23-2002, 06:04 PM

Maybe you are just trying to get a response - if so, you have.

Think about "required study hours". If this is so good for the pledges, would you favor it for the members?

Do you think that getting initiated means you don't have to do anything anymore?

KoolAidMan · #8 06-24-2002, 03:42 PM

Hoosier asked:
"Think about 'required study hours'. If this is so good for the pledges, would you favor it for the members?"

Members of course are supposed to have mandatory study hours. While not as enforced (depending on the fraters grade performance) as it is with the pledges, it is necessary. The conclusion that I came to with my mandatory study hours for pledges idea was taken from info that I got from the TEF.

"A fraternity cannot always RELY on changing a student's habits once he affiliates with the chapter."

"The importance of establishing a strong academic foundation during the early semesters of college life should be stressed. Membership should begin, then, with a thorough emphasis on scholastic achievement as the foremost goal of fraternity life."

"When the goals of fraternity life and the classroom are compatible, there will be no conflict of interest."

These three quotes were taken directly from the SOAR guide given out by the TEF. I was just providing an idea that would provide and support these three quotes as well as what else is presented in the manual.

Hoosier asked:
"Do you think that getting initiated means you don't have to do anything anymore?"

HELL NO. Being a brother should making pledging look like a joke. Being a brother should give you priveledges, but not exemptions. The reasons/ideas that I had for an 'initiation process' was to give the 'initiates' a foothold for what it takes to be a brother. I think that with my ideas the pledges would be able to hit the ground running as opposed for the chapter having to slow down to meet the accomodations for their newly initiated brothers.

TKE_EO303 · #9 06-28-2002, 01:40 PM

I don't believe there is any place for hazing (physical, mental, spiritual abuse) within Tau Kappa Epsilon. I do believe challenging group activities can be good bonding experiences. Most of the "good things" that some people believe come from hazing can also come from well constructed non-having events. For example, Yes, turning a pack of dogs on a pledge class and having them run for their lives can help them bond together. Yes, holding a pledge class group rock climb can do much the same thing---without the abuse.

Jack

KoolAidMan · #10 06-29-2002, 03:15 AM

I'm glad with the responses that I have gotten so far. It's pretty cool. Unfortunately, some people think that by hazing I think of forced drinking, drop offs, and other types of hazing. When I was talking about hazing I was not even referring to any of that and hopefully that is not going on within any chapter of Tau Kappa Epsilon. I guess my main focus of this thread was to try and find out where the line is drawn between making the pledge process a CHALLENGE and hazing. There is a clear line of division. I do want 'initiates' to earn their way into the brotherhood, but nothing extreme or really considered hazing (I would hope anyways). I would hate for anybody who wants to just pay to be allowed membership into the brotherhood and that's why I feel that it should be a challenge, but nothing harsh or questionable by any means.

I was searching previous posts on here and came across a previous thread on hazing and was apalled by the remarks by the fake Teke who claimed that he was an advisor and that he hazed to the fullest extent (keeping pledges awake for a week and what not). The actions that he claimed (though false) were beyond the realm of 'questionable' and IHQ was not only right in investigating it, but reassuring to future brothers that it will not/should not happen at any chapter. I'm afraid that people on this board were thinking that I was referring to that in my previous posts and I fervently assure you that I am not. Any fraternity, be it ours or another, has no logic or planning in their recruitment program if they endorse actions such as those. The only thing they accomplish is providing fuel for abuse in future classes (a cycle of abuse for all of you psychology majors).

To start a new tangent on the 'hazing' thread here, I would like 1to read some opinions from people on where the line is drawn between challenging an 'initiate' and hazing an 'initiate.' Please be positive and try not to be negative. I value your opinions and like to talk to other brothers from other chapters. If you're going to e-mail me please don't curse at me because in most cases I agree with you, but you assume otherwise while e-mailing me.

teke4life · #11 06-29-2002, 02:02 PM

koolaidman,
i just wanted to let you know that i know where you're coming from. it wasn't on the tke board, but i tried to comment constructively on a topic of oversensitivity about defining hazing. all i received in response is that i'm evil and i should be drawn and quartered (or something similar). i'm afraid the word itself has taken on such a negative connotation, that its tough to even talk about it objectively.
1 thing to keep in mind, if you think something is hazing, it probably is. 2 more things to ask yourslef when putting together a pledge program: 1) would i do it myself? 2) will this get us in trouble?
i've found in my relatively brief experience as a teke, that the best intentioned and light hearted activities can turn into a major cluster. sure, candidates should have to earn their letters, but there are so many worthwhile ways to have them prove their commitment... community service, their grades, and learning as much tke knowledge as humanly possible, are all things that will prove to the brotherhood that you are initiating capable young men. i have no idea if this was helpful, i really just felt it necessary to comment.

-bobby

KoolAidMan · #12 06-29-2002, 08:12 PM

I appreciate your comments man. They were helpful and I do plan on trying ot implement them into future recruitment ideas. I totally agree with you about hazing being an overly sensitive subject. I think that with much recent stories about fraternities I can't blame people for that. I think it's rather ironic how when a chapter can organize a philanthropy even that may raise $20,000 for a worthwhile organization and it won't make the national press, however, the same group could do something questionable in their recruitment and you can watch the mud fly. I don't get it. I guess that says alot about society, but oh well. Thanks for your response man. I really doo appreciate CONSTRUCTIVE responses and I hope some of you can take note. Thanks.

T. Rod O'Neal · #13 07-08-2002, 11:08 AM

I am a Teke because I did not want to endure the abuse that another fraternity tried to impose on me after I pledged them, and of course this was after talking about Brotherhood all week during rush. Once I agreed to accept their bid, then I was hollered at, insulted and so forth until I asked" Hey, what happened to the Brotherhood you guys told me about last week"

His reply? "You have to EARN that scumbag" (by cleaning up a mess after a party while having beer cans and insults being hurled at me?)

My reply: "FUCK YOU". And I walked off and it was several years before I would even TALK to a fraternity man again. Thank God that I listed to the guy from TKE.........

Further - I don't think chapters should attempt to achieve "Pledge Class Unity". I would prefer that they attempt to achieve CHAPTER UNITY.

Just my two cents on the matter.

The1calledTKE · #14 07-08-2002, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by T. Rod O'Neal

Further - I don't think chapters should attempt to achieve "Pledge Class Unity". I would prefer that they attempt to achieve CHAPTER UNITY.

I agree! Pledge class unity leads to clicks we will destroy a fraternity eventually.

KoolAidMan · #15 07-08-2002, 08:46 PM

While I do agree with chapter I have to disagree with focusing less on pledge class unity. When one is an initiate they are just quite that. An initiate. They are not a brother. I feel, when I say "I" it means me and myself only for future reference, that teamwork is a large part of the pledge experience. However, if one cannot work together as a team with their pledge class then how are they expected to work effectively with them when they are initiated? If the Hypophetes of the chapter is doing his job then the chapter unity should be there. There is a difference between an initiate and a brother. While I don't believe the two shouldn't be too close, I do agree that there should be a degree of separation. If that particular initiate was to do something that could defame the chapter, then how would that be handled? That's where the degree of separation comes in. While they are a part of the chapter, they are not a brother. That's just me. To elaborate I just think that there needs to be a degree of separation between the brothers and initiates and that the two should have two forms of unity. The unity should then be merged by an effective hypophetes. *all of this is purely opinion!!!! no hatemail please*