Teaching formal manners as part of pledging/new membership?

[naraht]

I went to a local (D.C. & MD) conference of Alpha Phi Omega this past weekend and my wife, my son and I sat at a table of 9 at the closing banquet. The other 6 places at the table were 5 brothers and a pledge from one of our chapters. At one point in the dinner, I noticed that one of the brothers sitting next to the pledge was instructing him on formal manners such as cutting multiple pieces off of the meat entree and then putting down his knife and eating each of the multiple pieces as well as where to place the knife and fork on the plate when he was done. Now this was a catered event in auditorium in the Student Union, so the waiting/catering staff was nowhere *near* at the level of understanding of the formal manners that were being taught to the pledge...

I tend to associate this with Greek Life in the 1950s and 1960s, is this still done significantly today? (note this was a chapter at an HBCU, so if that is being done routinely today in the NPHC, that might be the influence). I pledged at a chapter at a HWI and our pledging process didn't even come close to dealing with that.

[knight_shadow]

I have heard of many HBCUs teaching proper etiquette to their students, but haven't heard of any GLOs doing it (not to say this isn't done).

[MysticCat]

I can't speak to how much this is taught in GLOs these days, but I am struck by the irony of the brother instructing the pledge on manners in front of other people at a banquet. Not at all polite.

And am I understanding correctly that the brother was instructing the pledge to cut numerous pieces of meat at a time? Or was he instructing him not to do this? If the former, then the brother needs a few lessons himself before offering lessons to a pledge.

[greekdee]

It's not so much an etiquette thing, but I have friend whose son pledged a fraternity at Ole Miss Fall 2011 and part of their pledgeship included formal ballroom dance lessons. Of course, if it's taught in true cotillion tradition, proper manners may be part of it. I'll have to ask.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I can't speak to how much this is taught in GLOs these days, but I am struck by the irony of the brother instructing the pledge on manners in front of other people at a banquet. Not at all polite.

And am I understanding correctly that the brother was instructing the pledge to cut numerous pieces of meat at a time? Or was he instructing him not to do this? If the former, then the brother needs a few lessons himself before offering lessons to a pledge.

So true. Part of etiquette is NOT pointing out people's etiquette failings to their faces. Teaching manners should be done BEFORE a banquet, not during. Also, one piece of food should be cut from the whole at a time, the knife put down then the piece raised to the mouth with the fork, then the fork placed on the plate while the piece is eaten. I don't always follow those rules, but if I was going to instruct someone, I'd do it right. Same rules for buttering bread. Never butter a whole roll at one time. Bite sized pieces at a time should be buttered. AOII didn't teach etiquette. I took a class in college.

[DrPhil]

Generally speaking, HBCUs and NPHCs were and still are avenues through which racial and ethnic minorities can be exposed to things that most (not all) may not otherwise be exposed to.

Teaching proper etiquette across the generations has been done both formally (college courses) and informally (just hanging with people who know about etiquette). That is how HBCUs and NPHC orgs continue to instill and reinforce these forms of capital in students and members.

[Kevin]

I'm surprised not many groups cover this area. We do it once per year before our formal.

[BAckbOwlsgIrl]

I remember my Pledge Manual having a piece on how to set the table and the order of which forks to use when, etc.
I threw it out long ago or I would scan it.
We never went over during our pledge period.
I am constantly surprised at when people look at me for using a knife and fork, ala "continental style/European style" when I eat. They look at me like I am doing something strange. Those that have traveled get it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by BAckbOwlsgIrl

I am constantly surprised at when people look at me for using a knife and fork, ala "continental style/European style" when I eat. They look at me like I am doing something strange. Those that have traveled get it.

Yes and one critique of "etiquette" is whose "etiquette" is it supposed to be.

I was not formally taught "etiquette" at school or through Delta but instead by my family (they forgot to teach me which fork to use, partly because they think it's stupid and we always had only one fork with our plate at home--at events my parents typically used whichever fork they darn well pleased). What my family taught me is informally reinforced when I attend Delta and non-Delta events and am reminded that I cannot eat like a starving lion.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by BAckbOwlsgIrl

I remember my Pledge Manual having a piece on how to set the table and the order of which forks to use when, etc.
I threw it out long ago or I would scan it.
We never went over during our pledge period.
I am constantly surprised at when people look at me for using a knife and fork, ala "continental style/European style" when I eat. They look at me like I am doing something strange. Those that have traveled get it.

I have a bad habit of switching back and forth, which is an obvious no-no.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Generally speaking, HBCUs and NPHCs were and still are avenues through which racial and ethnic minorities can be exposed to things that most (not all) may not otherwise be exposed to.

Teaching proper etiquette across the generations has been done both formally (college courses) and informally (just hanging with people who know about etiquette). That is how HBCUs and NPHC orgs continue to instill and reinforce these forms of capital in students and members.

I knew HBCUs did it, but wasn't sure if NPHC organizations did. Thanks for chiming in

[Senusret I]

Etiquette used to be part of the Alpha pledge process. Now, we have no fucks left to give.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

I knew HBCUs did it, but wasn't sure if NPHC organizations did. Thanks for chiming in

Delta does not formally/officially do it, but if a collegiate or alumnae Delta chapter was hosting or attending a formal event, it would not be frowned upon to have some reminders if the chapter dynamic/culture is conducive to that.

For instance, D.I.D. (Delta Internal Development) are activities that reinforce Delta programs and traditions. We do D.I.D. for a number of reasons, including reminding Sorors of some things that they have forgotten. Therefore, a chapter could include some forms of etiquette if they are doing an Economic Development Gala, for example.

[ASTalumna06]

My chapter held an etiquette dinner at least once a year as a Membership Growth and Development event. You could hire members of the campus catering staff to host it, and we would be served food from the cafeteria on campus.. But the dinner was held in a much nicer place, and we all wore badge attire.

I learned a lot from those dinners - everything from setting the table, to seasoning/eating your food, to what to do with your napkin when leaving the table. I think EVERYONE could benefit from something like this.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Also, one piece of food should be cut from the whole at a time, the knife put down then the piece raised to the mouth with the fork, then the fork placed on the plate while the piece is eaten. I don't always follow those rules, but if I was going to instruct someone, I'd do it right. Same rules for buttering bread. Never butter a whole roll at one time. Bite sized pieces at a time should be buttered. AOII didn't teach etiquette. I took a class in college.

As BAcckbOwlsgIrl points out, with the meat cutting, it depends on whether you're eating using the American or Continental style. And even with the American way, I've been taught that if you're being strict about it, cutting one piece at a time is proper. However, it is typical for people to cut a few pieces at a time, which is ok as well. What you don't want to do is cut an entire piece of meat into small pieces all at once.

As for the bread and butter, this is absolutely correct. It now is one of my pet peeves when I'm out at a restaurant and I see someone butter an entire piece of bread and then bite into it. You should use the butter knife to put a small amount of butter on your bread plate (assuming the butter is coming from a shared butter dish), then you should break off a bite-sized piece, use your knife to butter the bread, put the knife down, then eat the bread.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

As BAcckbOwlsgIrl points out, with the meat cutting, it depends on whether you're eating using the American or Continental style. And even with the American way, I've been taught that if you're being strict about it, cutting one piece at a time is proper. However, it is typical for people to cut a few pieces at a time, which is ok as well. What you don't want to do is cut an entire piece of meat into small pieces all at once.

As for the bread and butter, this is absolutely correct. It now is one of my pet peeves when I'm out at a restaurant and I see someone butter an entire piece of bread and then bite into it. You should use the butter knife to put a small amount of butter on your bread plate (assuming the butter is coming from a shared butter dish), then you should break off a bite-sized piece, use your knife to butter the bread, put the knife down, then eat the bread.

The thing is, while technically correct, these are rather antiquated and probably not the most critical stuff to teach your members. The point of etiquette is to not be rude. It's far more important that people know not to chew with their mouth full or to return a napkin to the table than it is to course them in a bunch of arbitrary rules.

I think a good rule of thumb is to consider whether there is a good justification for the rule (e.g. you don't return your napkin to the table because it is dirty) in prioritizing the stuff members need to know.