Congrats to Michelle Obama

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

The same can be said about any stereotype. You know those who fit the stereotype (stereotypes come from somewhere) but given a real familiarity with the group, you know that the stereotype doesn't always fit unless there are formal or informal guidelines to uphold it.

Thanks for your interesting input!

Right. But I think that Tri-Delta may be one of the few specific NPC orgs that even breaks through the national consciousness. Maybe an argument could be made for Theta as well, because of the attention given to the prominent Republican women who belong to Theta in recent years. But other than that, I can't think of many examples where a specific org breaks through.

And for people educated about NPC, it's hard to say what really distinguishes Tri-Delta (sorry to keep using them). It's certainly not being ditzy. I could tell you they're different from AEPhi nationally, due to religious heritage. I could tell you they're different from an AES group like ASA. I think few NPCers, even ones who get squicky about stereotypes, would dispute that. But even the most "tier-based" NPC thinkers would have trouble articulating how Tri-Delta is really different from the other founding members of the NPC.

Maybe that's just a restatement of what I said earlier. meh.

[APhiAnna]

I think that there are definitely some national stereotypes about NPC and IFC organizations at the college level. In particular, I think Kappa, ZTA, KA, Pike, SAE, TKE and Tri-Delt have casually established "blanket stereotypes" that seem to fall in place if a chapter is at least moderately strong on their campus...if they aren't strong on campus then they are viewed as an exception to that stereotype. Going into detail about what these stereotypes are isn't worth it (particularly because there is a negative connotation to most of them), but I think most people that are familiar with strong Greek campuses will catch my drift on those.

That being said I don't think that a membership in a particular NPC or IFC GLO has any sort of meaning to the general population once you leave college. It may be a status symbol to say, "I was an ABC at XYZ University", but certainly just saying "I'm an Alpha Phi" or "I'm a Sigma Chi" doesn't put you into any sort of hierarchy or stereotype. If anything, it lumps you into a stereotype of being Greek (ie, conservative, wealthy, etc).

This is an obvious case of swerving into the wrong lane, but even those outside of the NPHC can pick up that the organization you join has a lot of resonance in the African-American community. I think that saying "I'm an AKA" brings forth many more conclusions and assumptions than saying "I'm an AGD". To speculate why would be out of my league...maybe it's that there are far fewer organizations and that these organizations have more chapters? I really don't know. But I do think that for NPC GLOs, despite national stereotypes, the cultural significance only really resonates when you throw in the campus you joined your GLO at (and that only holds water if somebody is familiar with campus stereotypes).

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

I think that there are definitely some national stereotypes about NPC and IFC organizations at the college level. In particular, I think Kappa, ZTA, KA, Pike, SAE, TKE and Tri-Delt have casually established "blanket stereotypes" that seem to fall in place if a chapter is at least moderately strong on their campus...if they aren't strong on campus then they are viewed as an exception to that stereotype. Going into detail about what these stereotypes are isn't worth it (particularly because there is a negative connotation to most of them), but I think most people that are familiar with strong Greek campuses will catch my drift on those.

I don't catch your drift at all and I think you're wrong about the NPC orgs.

NIC orgs are a different barrel of fish and I agree with those who have said that there are some more significant national stereotypes there--*FOR SOME NIC ORGS*. Not all. I also agree that KA, Pike, SAE, and TKE would be good examples of ones that have a stereotype nationally among Greeks.

I VERY much disagree that Kappa, ZTA, and Tri-Delt have national stereotypes among Greeks. I've already spoken to the exceptional case of Tri-Delta in the national mindset (not the Greek mindset). I agree that all of these orgs are considered as somewhat "more prestigious" than some others, for better or worse, right or wrong. But I don't see, again, what distinguishes Kappa from Theta. Tri-Delt from ZTA.

If you're willing to share what you think these stereotypes that would be helpful because frankly I think you're wrong.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

I don't catch your drift at all and I think you're wrong about the NPC orgs.

NIC orgs are a different barrel of fish and I agree with those who have said that there are some more significant national stereotypes there--*FOR SOME NIC ORGS*. Not all. I also agree that KA, Pike, SAE, and TKE would be good examples of ones that have a stereotype nationally among Greeks.

I VERY much disagree that Kappa, ZTA, and Tri-Delt have national stereotypes among Greeks. I've already spoken to the exceptional case of Tri-Delta in the national mindset (not the Greek mindset). I agree that all of these orgs are considered as somewhat "more prestigious" than some others, for better or worse, right or wrong. But I don't see, again, what distinguishes Kappa from Theta. Tri-Delt from ZTA.

If you're willing to share what you think these stereotypes that would be helpful because frankly I think you're wrong.

Yep, I think they vary and overlap with each other too much from campus to campus to have much significance, and too few people know their real histories and interests to have an accurate sense of what they are about.

But someone comparably familiar with NPHC sororities would have some idea what AKA was "supposed to be like" or was "supposed to be about."

I mean "supposed" more in its sense of imagined or put forth theoretically rather than "intended."

Which is why it's both more significant that Michelle Obama is accepting a membership and why it's somewhat harder to joke around about NPC groups reputations.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

I don't catch your drift at all and I think you're wrong about the NPC orgs.

NIC orgs are a different barrel of fish and I agree with those who have said that there are some more significant national stereotypes there--*FOR SOME NIC ORGS*. Not all. I also agree that KA, Pike, SAE, and TKE would be good examples of ones that have a stereotype nationally among Greeks.

I VERY much disagree that Kappa, ZTA, and Tri-Delt have national stereotypes among Greeks. I've already spoken to the exceptional case of Tri-Delta in the national mindset (not the Greek mindset). I agree that all of these orgs are considered as somewhat "more prestigious" than some others, for better or worse, right or wrong. But I don't see, again, what distinguishes Kappa from Theta. Tri-Delt from ZTA.

If you're willing to share what you think these stereotypes that would be helpful because frankly I think you're wrong.

With all due respect I completely disagree. The very first sentence in my original post states that I believe these stereotypes exist on a college level. If you have graduated from college then I think you pretty much prove the point of my message that these stereotypes only exist at the collegiate level and that upon graduation they do become indistinguishable from each other. Indistinguishable might be the wrong word for this forum because we all know they have intricate histories, morals, philanthropies, etc but I mean indistinguishable to the average American...saying that you are a Theta vs. a Pi Phi vs. a AST vs. a Gamma Phi really has no difference.

However, I do feel like there are a select group of organizations that on the college level do have national stereotypes. Nowhere near as developed as the NPHC stereotypes, and lacking all the positive elements as well, but they do exist. For most organizations you'll hear the gamut of negative stereotypes depending on the campus..."they are prude", "they party too hard", "they are fake-tan/fake-blonde types"...it will change. However, I feel with the sororities and fraternities I have mentioned the things said are 95% of the time the same from campus to campus (and when they are not said, it is usually because they are a struggling chapter on campus in which the stereotype would become "XYZs are low on numbers here...but everywhere else they are like this".)

Once again, if you are not in college, or are in a college with a smaller Greek community, you probably are not hearing these or they simply don't matter enough to register. This proves my point that after college these stereotypes have no bearing in the Greek community. However, I do believe that most students from schools with big Greek communities in California, Texas, Florida, deep south and parts of the Mid-West know more or less what I'm talking about.

Lastly, I don't believe these stereotypes are true. I do however believe that they are frequently put upon chapters even if those chapters have no relation to the stereotype. I also feel that these are probably new and are so widespread thanks to the types of networking sites like Facebook, MySpace, JuicyCampus, Old Row, etc.

[DSTCHAOS]

So in all of that typing, you all agree with each other.

And be cautious with catch phrases like "average American" and "public mind." My concept of public mind and average American means that none of the stereotypes of any GLO (NPHC or not) registers.

However, my point of reference is almost always the black community because that's the community that I expect to have some level of knowledge of NPHC orgs and how black history corresponds with American history. NPHC orgs are more integrated in the black community but the black community (or Greeks and nonGreeks who learned about us in college or as a graduate) is not the "public mind" or the "Average American."

Lastly, having knowledge of NPHC orgs isn't the same thing as having knowledge of the stereotypes of NPHC orgs. So the stereotypes don't have as much consistency and consensus at the national level as people assume that they do.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

With all due respect I completely disagree. The very first sentence in my original post states that I believe these stereotypes exist on a college level. If you have graduated from college then I think you pretty much prove the point of my message that these stereotypes only exist at the collegiate level and that upon graduation they do become indistinguishable from each other. Indistinguishable might be the wrong word for this forum because we all know they have intricate histories, morals, philanthropies, etc but I mean indistinguishable to the average American...saying that you are a Theta vs. a Pi Phi vs. a AST vs. a Gamma Phi really has no difference.

However, I do feel like there are a select group of organizations that on the college level do have national stereotypes. Nowhere near as developed as the NPHC stereotypes, and lacking all the positive elements as well, but they do exist. For most organizations you'll hear the gamut of negative stereotypes depending on the campus..."they are prude", "they party too hard", "they are fake-tan/fake-blonde types"...it will change. However, I feel with the sororities and fraternities I have mentioned the things said are 95% of the time the same from campus to campus (and when they are not said, it is usually because they are a struggling chapter on campus in which the stereotype would become "XYZs are low on numbers here...but everywhere else they are like this".)

Once again, if you are not in college, or are in a college with a smaller Greek community, you probably are not hearing these or they simply don't matter enough to register. This proves my point that after college these stereotypes have no bearing in the Greek community. However, I do believe that most students from schools with big Greek communities in California, Texas, Florida, deep south and parts of the Mid-West know more or less what I'm talking about.

Lastly, I don't believe these stereotypes are true. I do however believe that they are frequently put upon chapters even if those chapters have no relation to the stereotype. I also feel that these are probably new and are so widespread thanks to the types of networking sites like Facebook, MySpace, JuicyCampus, Old Row, etc.

I can see networking sites influencing the general stereotypes of what "sorority girls" are like but I don't think it's reinforcing types within individual groups. And honestly, are you making a claim that JuicyCampus* evaluations should be regarded are reality? Really?

Even when I was in school, the reputations of groups varied considerable from campus to campus for the NPC groups. I think looking through any group's magazine usually puts the fake tan/fake blond thing to rest for any particular org.

Where are you geographically? How big are the greek systems with which you are most familiar?

I think it's possible that within regions, stereotypes may be more likely, but even then, more than one group will occupy very similar niches, so you can't really say how one group is supposedly different from another.

* as far as Old Row, someone even geekier than I am could probably look at all their sorority rankings and see, but I think there's some variety even there.

ETA: maybe I'm totally misreading you. Are you saying that based on networking sites, stereotypes which have no connection to reality are emerging rather than claiming that actual somewhat-reality-based-reputations or expectations exist for groups on a national level? Like, "people on JuicyCampus say that XYZ are barbie doll party girls so now everyone believes it"?

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Nope. I can see networking sites influencing the general stereotypes of what "sorority girls" are like but I don't think it's reinforcing types within individual groups. And honestly, are you making a claim that JuicyCampus* evaluations should be regarded are reality? Really?

Even when I was in school, the reputations of groups varied considerable from campus to campus for the NPC groups. I think looking through any group's magazine usually puts the fake tan/fake blond thing to rest for any particular org.

Where are you geographically? How big are the greek systems with which you are most familiar?

I think it's possible that within regions, stereotypes may be more likely, but even then, more than one group will occupy very similar niches, so you can't really say how one group is supposedly different from another.

* as far as Old Row, someone even geekier than I am could probably look at all their sorority rankings and see, but I think there's some variety even there.

I don't believe JuicyCampus or Old Row evaluations should be taken seriously in the slightest. However, it is interesting that for most GLOs very different things will be said depending on the campus but for a select few you consistently hear the same things. And, for those specific posts, they mirror things I consistently hear in real life.

I agree very much with regionality, especially since some GLOs will be very present in a specific area of the country with considerable alum support. I think what I am talking about goes a little bit beyond that.

However, I cannot disagree more about those three not having some sort of national stereotype amongst collegians. I am in college as of this moment. I have friends literally across the country in all different tiers of Greek life. For most GLOs I hear very different stereotypes. For those three I consistently hear similar ones. For example, I have four friends who are XYZs (one of the three I mentioned earlier). One is unquestionably top tier, two are very middle of the road and one is struggling to the point they are considered the "least desirable". To give a geographic idea, one is in the Northeast, one in Florida, one in California, one in Texas. Granted, all four are "big Greek" schools. All four have the same exact stereotype attached to them. This is not the case with the vast majority of GLOs, as I have several friends who are in the same sororities whose stereotypes on campus vary widely. But for those three I feel that at least a portion of that stereotype is usually assigned to a chapter no matter it's "tier". Very similar to how much of the time, for example, Pike is labeled as athletic no matter what "tier" it is in on campus, where it is located or if they are even slightly athletic in the first place...the Pikes I know can barely throw a football and are still somehow labeled the "jock/meathead" guys.

Once again, maybe people disagree. But I go to a school with a very strong Greek community. The overwhelming majority of my friends picked schools with strong Greek communities. And about those three GLOs I consistently hear the same things from college students (never alums) about their stereotype on campus. Doesn't matter what tier they are, it definitely doesn't matter if it's true or not (usually it's not) but I hear the same exact things regardless.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

ETA: maybe I'm totally misreading you. Are you saying that based on networking sites, stereotypes which have no connection to reality are emerging rather than claiming that actual somewhat-reality-based-reputations or expectations exist for groups on a national level? Like, "people on JuicyCampus say that XYZ are barbie doll party girls so now everyone believes it"?

I think you are and I'm afraid maybe I was not clear. I'm not talking about "tiers"...people certainly don't say that "XYZ is the best everywhere" and "ABC is consistently bad" because that's never the case. Maybe in some regions XYZ is usually strong but even then I think people see the distinction.

I also am not saying characteristics like "all XYZs are hot". I'm talking about characteristics that are more subtle that can be assigned to any chapter even if they are the "bottom of the totem pole" so to speak. I think the best examples I can give you without saying specifically what I mean would be mirror images of some IFC fraternities...ie, Pike usually seen as athletic, KA as having southern traditions (even a California chapter I know is labeled like that!), etc. You can throw that at the top chapter at campus and you can throw that at the struggling chapters. I think those three sororities have similar characteristics that can be used no matter how the chapter stands in college culture. I don't think JuicyCampus, etc is causing it, but rather reflecting it.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

Maybe in some regions XYZ is usually strong but even then I think people see the distinction....ie, Pike usually seen as athletic, KA as having southern traditions (even a California chapter I know is labeled like that!), etc.

I agree with this...

In my opinion, it comes more from the Headquarters and how they approach each chapter than just appearing out of nowhere. For example, Pikes have a program called SLAG...Students, Leaders, Athletes, Generals or whatever.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

I think you are and I'm afraid maybe I was not clear. I'm not talking about "tiers"...people certainly don't say that "XYZ is the best everywhere" and "ABC is consistently bad" because that's never the case. Maybe in some regions XYZ is usually strong but even then I think people see the distinction.

I also am not saying characteristics like "all XYZs are hot". I'm talking about characteristics that are more subtle that can be assigned to any chapter even if they are the "bottom of the totem pole" so to speak. I think the best examples I can give you without saying specifically what I mean would be mirror images of some IFC fraternities...ie, Pike usually seen as athletic, KA as having southern traditions (even a California chapter I know is labeled like that!), etc. You can throw that at the top chapter at campus and you can throw that at the struggling chapters. I think those three sororities have similar characteristics that can be used no matter how the chapter stands in college culture. I don't think JuicyCampus, etc is causing it, but rather reflecting it.

Did you name the three or just three that you can think of?

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Did you name the three or just three that you can think of?

She named Kappa, ZTA, and Tri-Delt.

APhiAnna, I think we're going to agree to disagree because I think you're just plain wrong. And it's not because I'm from a small Greek system or don't have a wide experience with Greek life.

[APhiAnna]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

She named Kappa, ZTA, and Tri-Delt.

APhiAnna, I think we're going to agree to disagree because I think you're just plain wrong. And it's not because I'm from a small Greek system or don't have a wide experience with Greek life.

Same sentiments exactly. I understand that most people at GreekChat (wisely) choose to avoid talking about stereotypes but I am really shocked that people don't get what I'm talking about (or at least current college students). I think literally any of my friends that are Greek, and several that aren't, would understand where I am coming from when I say that. Once again, I am not condoning those stereotypes and I think they are false in most cases, but I do see certain labels being put on those three sororities at several schools no matter what "tier" they are, the region of the country they are in or the reality of the type of women they attract.

But I can tell neither one of us will change their mind. Especially since this is so completely off-topic I think "agreeing to disagree" is probably the best course of action.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by APhiAnna

I think you are and I'm afraid maybe I was not clear. I'm not talking about "tiers"...people certainly don't say that "XYZ is the best everywhere" and "ABC is consistently bad" because that's never the case. Maybe in some regions XYZ is usually strong but even then I think people see the distinction.

I also am not saying characteristics like "all XYZs are hot". I'm talking about characteristics that are more subtle that can be assigned to any chapter even if they are the "bottom of the totem pole" so to speak. I think the best examples I can give you without saying specifically what I mean would be mirror images of some IFC fraternities...ie, Pike usually seen as athletic, KA as having southern traditions (even a California chapter I know is labeled like that!), etc. You can throw that at the top chapter at campus and you can throw that at the struggling chapters. I think those three sororities have similar characteristics that can be used no matter how the chapter stands in college culture. I don't think JuicyCampus, etc is causing it, but rather reflecting it.

Sorry to you both. I was just looking at this one when I asked about which groups. I didn't go back and look.

I mean you APhiAnna and Breathesgelatin, who had to do my reading for me.

Yeah, I'll go with agree to disagree with APhiAnna about national images and reputations. Stereotype, I suppose is arguable since it wouldn't actually have to be based on any real similarity at all, but in may be a question of how many perceptions count to make a national reputation, image or stereotype.

[CrackerBarrel]

I would say KA, Pike, Sig Ep and TKE are the greek organizations with fairly accurate national reputations.