Does your HQ *really* want to know about hazing?

[agzg]

Eating off the floor, as in, they're not good enough to sit down at a table and eat like real men? They have to eat around a toilet?

I don't care how clean it is, I wouldn't eat off the floor for anyone. I'm an adult that commands respect, and will give it freely, unless some jerk makes me do something that compromises my dignity, at which time, they get no love.

Defend it all you want, it's still wrong, illegal, and completely pointless.

[shinerbock]

1) Its not wrong
2) Its not illegal

They can leave anytime they want.

[shinerbock]

Also, this entire thing about "what, like they're not good enough to eat off a table?" Do you guys think before you type? I told you what the point is, its not like they eat there for every meal. We've never had a pledge say "I'm too dignified for this," in fact they almost always think its funny. They're scared, but then when realizing the point, know that they've done a good enough job to where its perfectly safe for them to eat off it. You can't be "dignified" and join my fraternity. If we say, hey take out that trash, and you go "no, that degrades me," I'll show you where the door is.

[agzg]

1. It IS illegal. 44 states have anti-hazing laws. In fact, of the six that don't, the only one that I would count as "southern" even is New Mexico, and that's definitely not part of the "Old South" as we know it.

Hazing is any act that endangers the physical welfare of a member, initiated or not initiated. It is also any act that includes shaming or humiliation of a member. Forcing one to eat off the floor, I think that would fall under the shame aspect. I'm quoting Pennsylvania law here, but I've seen the laws for many of our Southern friends, and they're very, VERY similar.

"The term shall include, but not be limited to, any brutality of a physical nature, such as whipping, beating, branding, forced calisthenics, exposure to the elements, forced consumption of any food, liquor, drug or other substance, or any other forced physical activity which could adversely affect the physical health and safety of the individual, and shall include any activity which would subject the individual to extreme mental stress, such as sleep deprivation, forced exclusion from social contact, forced conduct which could result in extreme embarrassment, or any other forced activity which could adversely affect the mental health or dignity of the individual, or any willful destruction or removal of public or private property."

Emphasis mine.

Taking out the trash is CHORES. Everyone does chores. Eating off the floor is a completely different ball of yarn.

Fraternity members, including those that are not yet initiated, should have a sense of personal dignity. In fact, it's those with dignity that we should be recruiting. The greek system itself is supposed to heighten a personal sense of dignity, not tear it down.

ETA: It's easy to find anti-hazing laws. They're all posted at http://www.stophazing.org/laws.html .
The six states that do not have anti-hazing laws are Alaska, Hawaii, Montana, New Mexico, South Dakota and Wyoming.

[tunatartare]

Slight hijack, but what are the other five states that don't have anti-hazing laws?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KLPDaisy

Slight hijack, but what are the other five states that don't have anti-hazing laws?

Alaska, Hawaii, Montana, New Mexico, South Dakota and Wyoming.

[shinerbock]

Like I said, not forced imprisonment or anything, they can leave anytime they want. We aren't holding guns to their heads. You'd have a hard time proving that the option of eating off a clean and basically sterilized floor is adversely effecting mental health. If somebody is that fragile, I certainly don't want them in my fraternity. I think its sad that the government is so concerned over what PEOPLE CHOOSE TO DO TO THEMSELVES. What a pathetic society we live in where peoples self esteem must be held above all else. No wonder people don't start acting like adults until later in life. They are not given any responsibility, nor do they have to take any. They are coddled and made to feel included even when they are not. Frankly, I don't want a fraternity full of boys who get offended at the slightest thing or are constantly on the verge of an emotional breakdown. Thankfully there are places where it is still ok to be a man.

[agzg]

4. any activity that intimidates or threatens the student with
ostracism that subjects the student to extreme mental stress,
shame, or humiliation, or that adversely effects the student
from entering or remaining registered in an educational
institution, or that may reasonably be expected to cause a
student to leave the organization or the institution rather
than submit to acts described in this subsection;

That's TEXAS law.

Telling someone that if they don't eat off the floor they'll be shown the door? Yup, hazing. Yup, illegal.

Fight me all you want on this, my point is that IT IS ILLEGAL TO FORCE SOMEONE TO EAT OFF THE FLOOR. No matter how clean it is. It could be a floor cleaned by an act of God. It could be a hospital floor. It's still illegal.

ETA: I'd go so far as to say that it takes a real man to stop hazing. You can still be "manly men" while creating an environment that benifits all the individuals of that group. Hazing, in my eyes, is like children who have to make someone less than them so they can feel bigger about themselves.

[shinerbock]

Or you can get up and walk out. Not forced imprisonment. ANYTHING we do that may cause people to second guess, we always let them know they can leave. The fact that these laws exist are sickening. The fact that yall view them as some great and landmark victory is even more disgusting.

[agzg]

Wow you're just pulling all the stops out now. Are laws against killing, vandalizing, stealing, and beating the crap out of someone "sickening" now, too? Or are the people that support them "disgusting?" How do you feel about child molestation? Or molestation in general? Rape?

You notice, I'm pulling out stuff that has been done before as "initiation rites" to fraternities and sororities.

It's illegal for a reason. And those that support our laws? I agree, completely disgusting.

[shinerbock]

Oh congratulations. What a completely relevant post. You really made a great comparison, it wasn't extreme at all. Lets go back to what you posted earlier, in order to keep you from using completely unrelated examples...

4. any activity that intimidates or threatens the student with
ostracism that subjects the student to extreme mental stress,
shame, or humiliation, or that adversely effects the student
from entering or remaining registered in an educational
institution, or that may reasonably be expected to cause a
student to leave the organization or the institution rather
than submit to acts described in this subsection;

What I find disgusting, is that now you have a right not to be ostracized? You have a state law which protects you from shame and humiliation?

Oh you're right, feeling bad about yourself is the same as rape, or molestation, or being beaten. My bad.

[agzg]

"While alcohol use is common in many types of hazing, other examples of typical hazing practices include: personal servitude; sleep deprivation and restrictions on personal hygiene; yelling, swearing and insulting new members/rookies; being forced to wear embarrassing or humiliating attire in public; consumption of vile substances or smearing of such on one's skin; brandings; physical beatings; binge drinking and drinking games; sexual simulation and sexual assault."

Sexual simulation = Molestation
Sexual assault = Rape
Physical beatings = self explanatory
Humiliation = dur.

What do they all have in common? You guessed it! Good job! They're all forms of hazing.

You should brush up on your reading skills.

I am getting ALL of this information from personal experience and www.stophazing.org

[shinerbock]

Why should I read up? Who said anything about rape, or physical beatings? Just because some website says they are bad, does not mean they have any relevance. We don't beat, we certainly don't molest or rape. I imagine those things are fairly rare, and sure, lets have laws against them...SINCE WE ALREADY DO. Still has nothing to do with the point at hand.

[agzg]

You keep asking the significance of molestation, rape, beatings, vandalism, etc, when I've already pointed it out. The significance is that they fall under the same law as humiliation. Anti-hazing laws.

Have you ever seen someone that was arrested on many charges for the same action? Say, they beat their roommate up with a bowstaff used in martial arts, and they were charged with aggravated assault, possession of a deadly weapon, etc?

Same thing here. If a group forces their new members to spray paint something, anything really, on the side of a building, if they get caught, they'd be charged with vandalism and the group itself could be charged with hazing. For one act.

The relevance is that they are all forms of hazing, and they are all illegal. If you have a problem with those laws, write your state senator. I'm sure they'd LOVE to hear from you.

While you may or may not beat or molest your pledges, you'd be suprised at the number of chapters that do. That is the reason these laws are in place. It's not just fraternities, it's sororities, all either NPC, NPHC, NIC, or locals, it's military groups, it's university groups of upperclassmen against freshmen, it's sports teams.

There's hazing all over the place. My main point is that, no matter what kind of hazing you do, be it subtle, harassment, or violent, it should be up to the fine upstanding men and women who are members of the greek community to uphold our values and completely remove ourselves from being associated with groups that haze like sports teams, etc. The only way to do that is by stopping hazing.

If we say that we are so elite, why do we stoop to the level of groups that, on the whole, we see as "beneath us" in order to instill respect and pride in our new members? There are more constructive ways to reach this end.

[shinerbock]

You can't group all of this together. Just because it is listed in somebody's definition of hazing, under no circumstances means that roadtripping a kid or doing a lineup is the same as rape or beating. Military groups haze far worse than we would ever think of hazing. Their activities build strength and toughness, while ours are focused on building unity and responsibility.

We don't need to change the greek system. Plenty of great people went through the old system. For example, my father, the congressman I worked for last summer, President Bush, etc.

Nothing that we do conflicts with our creed or our fraternity ideals. Rather, it strengthens and instills them. We, as the greek system, hold ourselves to a higher standard. That requires that our members are more confident and more loyal than the average man on campus. Pledges do not usually come in with a great sense of responsibility or confidence. Thus, we use tasks and such to help prepare them for there role as a student and a leader both on campus and in the fraternity.

On a side note, I don't expect you to understand. Women often don't understand the male need to feel they have earned something. When I first got to school, we had a female head of Greek Life, and the concept was beyond her. However, I assure you it exists, at least down here. When I was pledge trainer we had to cut pledgeship short a couple of weeks, and upon being initiated and told what they were going to do their last few weeks, the new brothers felt cheated. As someone who was "hazed," I absolutely attest to its purpose. It was also quite enjoyable, and gave a great sense of accomplishment.