Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[1964Alum]

Kevin, I did not mean or even imply that the description of the truly craven behavior of the fraternity men described in the RS article applies to all fraternities or all men within any given fraternity. What I AM saying is that the public perception of MANY -and even before the RS article- is that the fraternities are characterized by heavy drinking, sex-obsessed young men. And to change that perception, fraternity men on campuses will need to take a very firm and consistent stand that they in no manner defend or support that kind of behavior. What can you do? Enthusiastically sign on to things like the blue armband bystander programs which are developing on college campuses. Form escort groups to see young women safely home to their residences. And many more affirmative programs that I'm sure you all can develop.

As part of the non-aired emergency meeting at UVA held with its Board of Visitors, Administrators, and student leaders, the IFC President said (paraphrased) that as much as it hurts him to acknowledge it, rape is a serious problem within the UVA fraternities.

Candor and a courageous acknowledgement of the reality of the problem is what parents, alumni, students, and community members are looking for. And constructive steps to deal with it. Looking for those very rare instances of false rape reports or other attempts to minimize a very serious problem are not being seen at all favorably. Wrong focus for now!

I was very surprised to see that Sigma Nu is no longer on my undergraduate college campus. Sigma Nu was always a very solid chapter and remained so when I took our youngest to look at the music department there. One of its members drove us around and escorted us to the buildings we needed to go to. A complete gentleman.

I just hate seeing what is going on now in what were once very respected fraternities!

[1964Alum]

It started out with "Drew" taking Jackie on a date. After a dinner at a restaurant, they went back to the Phi Psi house. There "Drew" acted like the Judas goat and led her upstairs where she was gang raped by the other seven men.

[Low D Flat]

I took him to be drawing an analogy with the frequency of rape and sexual assault that is the result of conspiracy between and participation of numerous fraternity members and that is explicitly or implicitly tolerated if not encouraged by the chapter as a whole.

Well, I'm looking at the whole quote, including the sentence it was responding to:

Until the behavior of fraternity brothers consistently changes, there will be no change in the public perception.

This issue, kind of like school shootings, kind of like terrorist attacks, etc., while real and while needing to be addressed is not nearly so pervasive as your above sentence would suggest. Fraternity chapters are not consistently places where women can expect to be raped. The problem is real, but let's not blow it out of proportion.

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway. Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

It is unclear whether honorgal is ranking rape.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Well, I'm looking at the whole quote, including the sentence it was responding to:

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway. Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

I can see both of your points. However, reading what you quoted in the context of everything that honorgirl and Kevin have said in this thread—including their suggestions that the totality of instances of rape and sexual assualt may be over-reported and honorgirl's response to DBB a few posts up— as well as in other threads on this and related topics, those aren't the conclusions I come to about Kevin's analogy or about whether honorgirl has suggested that there is a category a rape or sexual assault we don't need to worry about. Even if there some "ranking" of rape going on that treats some kinds of rape as worse than others, that doesn't lead to a conclusion that some kinds rank too low to worry about. The law treats some forms of rape and sexual assault as worse than others based on things like the age of the victim, use of weapons or whether the perpetrator is aided and abetted by others.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Even if there some "ranking" of rape going on that treats some kinds of rape as worse than others, that doesn't lead to a conclusion that some kinds rank too low to worry about. .

No, of course it doesn't lead to that conclusion. But some people would rather just throw the outrage card instead of have a reasoned discussion.

It's objectively clear that the RS article describing a pre-planned seven person gang rape has lead to a understandably different reaction from a whole host of people (including, but not limited to, reactions in this thread and reactions at UVA) than the article detailing what the Swathmore co-ed went through.

We could find numerous examples of various criminal or unsavory behavior classifications where one fact pattern is more horrific than another. That's one reason why some of our laws have mitigating and aggravating circumstances.

[DrPhil]

I don't see an "outrage card" in this thread.

With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape. Many alleged victims are silenced because they didn't scream enough, didn't resist enough, aren't bruised and bloody enough, or their relationship with the alleged offender is too close to claim the person didn't deserve sex.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape.

Fair enough. I think that this is a topic, like so many others, where the individual lenses through which we view the discussion have the positive potential to add depth and a greater perspective, but also have the negative potential to inhibit understanding because we're not quite talking about the same thing, or we assume that others are starting from the same point we are. At worst, it leads to people talking past each other and to frustration that a reasonable discussion can't be had.

For me with the lens I bring to it, if I suggest that some rapes (or murders or any other crimes) are worse in degree than others, I do not mean to suggest at all that there are any that can be ignored or condoned—more that there is bad and really bad. So it is helpful for me to be reminded that there are understandable reasons why others might see red flags where none were intended by me.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

There's nothing there limiting the comparison to premeditated and chapter-sanctioned gang rape -- and I doubt many victims care whether the act was premeditated/sanctioned or not, anyway.

If I was a representative of my national HQ who was sent to a chapter to investigate a rape charge, I would find it VERY relevant to my rec to HQ as to whether the rape was a case of date rape between an individual member/per and his victim or whether it was a chapter-sanctioned gang rape. In one instance, perhaps the sanction is to put the chapter on probation, educate them and expel the perp while cooperating with law enforcement vs. shutting the chapter down for several years, expelling all members involved and possibly recolonizing once all of the former members were no longer matriculates at the university in question.

There's a HUGE difference from a prevention standpoint. Is one "worse" than the other? That's entirely subjective.

Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms.

No.. not "consistently." The vast majority of fraternity houses are totally safe places for women so are dorms. This UVA situation is obviously intolerable and horrible. It is not the norm by a long shot.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Fraternity houses ARE consistently places where women are at risk of rape. So are parties in dorms. It's smart for women to view them as potentially dangerous and take certain precautions (buddy system, not putting down their drinks, etc.). That's nothing like a school shooting.

Maybe other schools are different, but at least in my school, parties in Dorms had three characteristics that made them safer.
1) The parties couldn't be as loud.
2) Alcohol in the Fraternity houses (even though they were owned by the school) was relatively winked at, in the Dorms it wasn't. (yes, a soda could be hit with a roofie, but the roofie's effects would be more noticed if the early effects couldn't be attributed to Alcohol.
3) While a gang rape could happen in a dorm room away from the party, the chances of the men raping knowing where a room where sounds wouldn't be heard (Say a room immediately under the speakers) is, IMO, less likely to be true.

Note, *none* of these are directly tied to being a Greek Letter Organization, they would be equally true if the <Fill in the Blank> Sports team has a house they live in.

[Low D Flat]

naraht, you're right.

If I was a representative of my national HQ who was sent to a chapter to investigate a rape charge

Agreed, but I'm looking at this from the perspective of young women at the school, not HQs.

No.. not "consistently."

Yes, consistent RISK. No place in the world is "totally safe" unless you're looking at events retrospectively. We can look back and say that there were zero rapes. But you don't know that 100% of your brothers would never rape anybody in the future. Maybe they're a lot lower risk than guys at some house that celebrates misogyny, but there's risk. Women live in a world with this risk. That's what I'm focused on.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Yes, consistent RISK. No place in the world is "totally safe" unless you're looking at events retrospectively. We can look back and say that there were zero rapes. But you don't know that 100% of your brothers would never rape anybody in the future. Maybe they're a lot lower risk than guys at some house that celebrates misogyny, but there's risk. Women live in a world with this risk. That's what I'm focused on.

NO. How many Greek parties did you attend as an undergrad?

There is risk in dorms, fraternity houses, off campus houses, on campus houses, apartments, trailers, bars, restaurants, hotel rooms. (I feel like I'm doing the rape version of Green Eggs and Ham) Women - AND men - need to be on their guard any time they are not 100% aware. And that includes being in an emotionally fragile state without drinking a drop of alcohol.

To say that there's a higher risk in one place than another creates a false sense of security when you are NOT in that place, and that's when bad things happen.

[Kevin]

The consequences for being convicted of rape are too severe to let anything more than beyond a reasonable doubt be the standard for conviction. Victims' rights have to be balanced with the rights of the accused.

[Low D Flat]

I went to lots of Greek parties as an undergrad (and as a high school girl, I'm sorry to say). But I'm not trying to generalize from my experience.

To say that there's a higher risk in one place than another creates a false sense of security when you are NOT in that place, and that's when bad things happen.

Yes and no. This CAN create a false sense of security, but it doesn't have to. People need to keep their wits about them everywhere, but there's more risk dancing at a college kegger than volunteering at an elementary school. It's riskier to be around men than around women; it's riskier to walk down my street at 3 AM than at noon. Understanding that some places (like college parties) are particularly dangerous for women doesn't preclude 24/7 awareness.

[1964Alum]

Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?

I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.