School Shooting Newtown CT

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Kevin, the problem with your statistics is that they only take into account school violence, but most of the mass shootings this year and last have not been at schools but at malls, homes, places of worship and other non-school related locals.

This just means that Kevin, like the media, is blowing those incidents off because they didn't involve a large number of sweet innocent children, just grimy old everyday grownups, and are therefore unimportant.

Thank you for giving me a good jumping off point for me to vent what is really chapping my hide about the coverage of this story. The references to "20 angels" are particularly unfeeling and offensive to the friends and family of the 6 adults that were killed.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by 33girl

This just means that Kevin, like the media, is blowing those incidents off because they didn't involve a large number of sweet innocent children, just grimy old everyday grownups, and are therefore unimportant.

Thank you for giving me a good jumping off point for me to vent what is really chapping my hide about the coverage of this story. The references to "20 angels" are particularly unfeeling and offensive to the friends and family of the 6 adults that were killed.

Not really sure what news you're watching, because the stories I've seen (locally in CT and on the national news) have discussed the deaths of the teachers and principal as part of the horrific tragedy in all of this. I've seen lots of discussion about the adults who were murdered. So, we must be watching different news reports.

That aside, I was in Newtown today for the first time since this all happened. The community has really come together, but there is a tremendous amount of shock and hurt. It's all so incredibly sad.

[honeychile]

FWIW, the funeral homes in the area at full capacity, which is why the funerals are being spread out over the week. Ana Marquez-Greene will be buried on Saturday.

[AGDee]

Michigan Governor Rick Snyder has vetoed the bill the Michigan legislature passed in the middle of the night (Thursday night/Friday morning) before their last session of the year. The bill specifically allowed concealed carry in day cares, schools and churches. It had been passed just hours before the Sandy Hook shooting.

[DubaiSis]

Here's my 2 cents:
1-any gun for private ownership should have to be reloaded after 6 shots.
2-a person should only be able to buy a limited amount of ammo at one time. Yes, they could stock pile it, but that would mean they'd have time to think if this plan is really a good one, and maybe reconsider. If you have to take out 9 boxes of ammo to go hunting, you might want to try lessons before hunting again.
3-any idea that legislating for slight (lightning strike) situations is ridiculous. Airplanes are legislated at every stage and upon every accident. 1 failed shoe bomb equals you have to take off your shoes for every flight (stolen from interweb, but it's true). Children killed while at school is WAY more common than bombs on airplanes and yet anyone who travels knows how many crazy steps we have to go through because of a lightning strike threat.
4-being sympathetic about one civil tragedy doesn't let you off the hook of the rest. The OKC bombing was a terrible thing. Lucky for you it didn't involve guns so you don't have to feel bad about anybody else being a victim of gun violence.
5-mental healthcare reform has to be an element of the change that needs to happen in our society. Reagan's biggest legacy is when he dismantled the mental health institutions because apparently people enjoyed living in nuthouses and took advantage.
6-teaching civility and conflict resolution has to be another thing changed in our society. Would it solve anything? No. Would it help? I believe it would.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Here's my 2 cents:
1-any gun for private ownership should have to be reloaded after 6 shots.

I imagine the two armed robbers breaking in to my house at 0300 would agree. Or the team of 3 who rob my bank while I'm in line. Would they limit themselves?

2-a person should only be able to buy a limited amount of ammo at one time. Yes, they could stock pile it, but that would mean they'd have time to think if this plan is really a good one, and maybe reconsider. If you have to take out 9 boxes of ammo to go hunting, you might want to try lessons before hunting again.

Can you explain how one would practice? It's difficult enough to practice with "range ammo" (ball, full metal jacket, for health reasons at indoor ranges) and know that the self-defense ammo one carries (ball ammo is more dangerous as it is more likely to go through the target and cause additional damages) shoots differently.

I regularly shoot 150-300 rounds at the range. That's how I know I could hit what I must, when I must.

3-any idea that legislating for slight (lightning strike) situations is ridiculous. Airplanes are legislated at every stage and upon every accident. 1 failed shoe bomb equals you have to take off your shoes for every flight (stolen from interweb, but it's true). Children killed while at school is WAY more common than bombs on airplanes and yet anyone who travels knows how many crazy steps we have to go through because of a lightning strike threat.

Bringing in TSA procedures hardly helps anyone's argument. An example of another government bureaucracy four times as large as it needs to be to provide the essential (debatable, but that's another post) service.

4-being sympathetic about one civil tragedy doesn't let you off the hook of the rest. The OKC bombing was a terrible thing. Lucky for you it didn't involve guns so you don't have to feel bad about anybody else being a victim of gun violence.

The worst school incident -- a bombing in Bath Township, MI, in 1927 -- didn't involve guns. It, too, killed elementary-school children.

5-mental healthcare reform has to be an element of the change that needs to happen in our society. Reagan's biggest legacy is when he dismantled the mental health institutions because apparently people enjoyed living in nuthouses and took advantage.
6-teaching civility and conflict resolution has to be another thing changed in our society. Would it solve anything? No. Would it help? I believe it would.

Conflict resolution, yes. But also individual responsibility.

And reality. One cannot go through life believing one is just as good as the next guy at everything. Self-esteem is important, but everyone has strengths and weaknesses; those who never learn that never learn interdependence and often build resentments against those who excel at something.

[badgeguy]

"Those who do not learn from the past, are doomed to repeat it!"

Ive researched this and know its not the exact quote from George Santanya, but it definitely fits this situation.

Regardsless of the laws, and creator given rights, evil is evil and the biggest question no one had been able to answer yet is Why? Why did this person at this time decide to do what they did?

The bad part is that in this case we will never know for sure as the guy killed himself and so anything the investigators find is purely conjecture, and speculative.

[I Phi 1963]

I don't even know why this discussion went past 10 posts. Dude is a piece of shit who shot up some kids. Unfortunately, this dumb shit will happen again, probably in less than a year. Are they going to change the gun laws? No, because there is too much money involved, and if they did, all that would do is make it more difficult for folks like you and me who want to protect their cribs, to get the guns. The criminals are going to get the guns regardless. What they need to do is make the laws (as far as punishment goes) more harsh. Fuck a mental institution, start putting mofos out of their misery.

[TonyB06]

[QUOTE=badgeguy;2194135Regardsless of the laws, and creator given rights, evil is evil and the biggest question no one had been able to answer yet is Why? Why did this person at this time decide to do what they did?

The bad part is that in this case we will never know for sure as the guy killed himself and so anything the investigators find is purely conjecture, and speculative.[/QUOTE]

You're right. The closest we can get is the sad acceptance that at some time we will observe the raw face of evil.

I've read the thread and agree that more has to be done -- we've seen four of these types of atrocites in 2012 alone. That's enough of a pattern for me.

The problem is probably more on the mental health side, but it's the guns that escalate the carnage.

So what to do? Personally, I don't think assault-style weapons should be allowed outside the military.

-renew assault weapons ban
-close gun show loopholes
-limit/eliminate high capacity automatic clips.

let's start with that.

[adpimiz]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

You're right. The closest we can get is the sad acceptance that at some time we will observe the raw face of evil.

I've read the thread and agree that more has to be done -- we've seen four of these types of atrocites in 2012 alone. That's enough of a pattern for me.

The problem is probably more on the mental health side, but it's the guns that escalate the carnage.

So what to do? Personally, I don't think assault-style weapons should be allowed outside the military.

-renew assault weapons ban
-close gun show loopholes
-limit/eliminate high capacity automatic clips.

let's start with that.

I'm not saying I disagree, but what about criminals obtaining weapons on the black market? You can't stop that.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by adpimiz

I'm not saying I disagree, but what about criminals obtaining weapons on the black market? You can't stop that.

I agree with you. Law enforcement will always have to be on the front lines of this multi-faceted attack.

But logic suggests that some % of black market acquisitions were originally legally purchased (and later stolen, lost, etc.). If we can find ways lessen the numbers of these types of weapons that exist, we lessen the numbers that fall into black market circulation/use.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

<snip>

The problem is probably more on the mental health side, but it's the guns that escalate the carnage.

So what to do? Personally, I don't think assault-style weapons should be allowed outside the military.

-renew assault weapons ban
-close gun show loopholes
-limit/eliminate high capacity automatic clips.

let's start with that.

The "assault" weapon differs from a hunting rifle in looks only. Add a pistol grip to make the firearm easier to control (accuracy is not good?) or a carbon-fiber black stock instead of old-growth walnut, and there you have it. In fact, the "assault" weapon designated AR-15 is illegal for hunting in my state - because it's not considered powerful enough.

There is no such thing as a gun show loophole. NOTHING is legal at a gun show that is not legal in my living room. And I'll be happy to take you to gun shows where I can show you the "unlicensed" dealers. Only problem is, "unlicensed dealers" are NOT selling firearms.

Automatic weapons are already highly regulated. They require additional permissions from law-enforcement agencies, a tax stamp, and permission from BATFE. Therefore, the "clips" you refer to are useless without the highly regulated firearm to go with it.

So while I appreciate that you're trying to put forth solutions, in fact, none of these are solutions.

[CutiePie2000]

Question for the Americans with elementary school age kids in your lives (as I live in Canada and I haven't been inside an elementary school in a while)

I've read on some news stories that the gunman "broke into" the school; I'm not sure that I understand "broke into".

Every elementary school that I know of (i.e. here in Canada), yes, visitors have to "report" to the office, but unless the office is "right there" at the front entrance, someone could stroll into the unlocked front entrance & easily bypass the office and wander around the place until someone inquired, "May I help you?"

Are American elementary schools generally kept "locked"? (In particular, the front entrance?)

Please explain / advise.

[glittergal1985]

In many towns around me, school doors are automatically locked once the bell rings for classes to begin. I believe in the case of Sandy Hook, the gunman shot his way through the glass of the locked front doors of the school building in order to enter.

[ree-Xi]

Originally Posted by CutiePie2000

Question for the Americans with elementary school age kids in your lives (as I live in Canada and I haven't been inside an elementary school in a while)

I've read on some news stories that the gunman "broke into" the school; I'm not sure that I understand "broke into".

Every elementary school that I know of (i.e. here in Canada), yes, visitors have to "report" to the office, but unless the office is "right there" at the front entrance, someone could stroll into the unlocked front entrance & easily bypass the office and wander around the place until someone inquired, "May I help you?"

Are American elementary schools generally kept "locked"? (In particular, the front entrance?)

Please explain / advise.

The doors at the school are locked at 9:30. All visitors must be buzzed in. The perpetrator (I will not give him the respect of using his name) buzzed the door and was refused. He then shot a glass door and climbed through the hole.

The noise of the shots is what brought several administrators to the hallway where he shot them.