School Shooting Newtown CT

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I don't know about that. I think history just might support the idea that sometimes those emotional events are what prompt people in power into actually doing something. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory was a direct catalyst for workplace safety laws. The Selma to Montgomery marches, and particularly the violence in Selma, was a catalyst for the passage of the Voting Rights Act (which LBJ sent to Congress just ten days after Selma).

It's a matter of perspective, but comparing the Shirtwaist Factory or the incidents in the South during the civil rights era isn't a very apt comparison. Consider that while not routine, school shootings are something which have reoccurred many times going back to colonial times (of course these days, our deaths are not usually caused by marauding native war bands). While tragic, this has happened before many many times and regardless of what laws you pass, it'll happen again.

If you're going to consider new legislation, there needs to be a weighing of cost vs. benefit. There's a strong argument to be made that finding any benefit whatsoever is tricky to impossible.

Strike will the iron is hot and all.

Exploiting tragedy to score political points.

What this means may be a matter of perspective. I agree that the evidence seems to show that mass killings overall have been in decline in recent years. But just in 2012, we've had Aurora, Oak Creek, WI, Minneapolis and now Newtown. To me, that means (1) they're not rare enough and (2) we're not doing all we can to reduce them more.

It's not disputable that 2012 has been an exceptionally bad year, but it is nowhere close to what we used to see 20 years ago. We passed gun legislation back then. How many deaths were prevented by the Clinton "assault weapons" ban?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Exploiting tragedy to score political points.

Sometimes. Sometimes, it's responding to events by doing the right thing, doing what's in society's best interests. Sometimes it's saying "Enough already! We can't stop them all, but we'll stop the ones we can."

It's not disputable that 2012 has been an exceptionally bad year, but it is nowhere close to what we used to see 20 years ago. We passed gun legislation back then. How many deaths were prevented by the Clinton "assault weapons" ban?

Actually, the figures I have seen put the number of incidents just a little lower than where it was 20 years ago, with the spike being about 10 years ago, and with the number of victims being about the same if not a little higher than 20 years ago.

As for the assualt weapons ban, it's true things were no better when it was in place. Was that because a ban by nature is ineffective, or was it because that ban was riddled with holes and exceptions and perhaps targeted the wrong things (the weapons themselves rather than the ammunition)? Experts can and do disagree on that.

In any event, I think most of us in this thread have been pretty clear that we don't think "banning guns" is the answer, and that the discussion and action we think needs to happen involves a whole lot more than guns.

[DGTess]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Whaaa? Where in the Bible does it say, "Thou shalt have a Baikal MR221?"
<snip>

I never quoted the Bible, a book I see as merely a nice novel with some possibly historical roots. I said "creator-given" -- because that's what our founding documents say -- "...endowed by their creator with ..." in conjunction with the Bill of Rights. -- which codify an innate right.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

<snip>

Speculation and misinformation has been popping around since Friday morning--things that are "confirmed" are debunked moments later. Remember how it was "certain" that the mom was a teacher at the school, and he was allowed in? Neither of these items ended up being true. "Close family friends" who say that she took her sons target shooting ended up being merely acquaintances.

Yes, speculation and misinformation are still abundant. We simply do not know the specifics yet, and those of us in the general populace may never know.

Originally Posted by amIblue?

How do you secure a firearm in the presence of children?

If said firearm is secured, how do you get to it quickly enough to react before you are taken out by the attacker, bearing in mind that this is real life and not an action movie? <snip>

First, you have it on your person - concealed or openly, in a secure holster, which means with the trigger guard covered.
Second - you teach children not to touch. Like a hot stove, or a fireplace.
And third - you may not get to it fast enough. You may see some killed before your eyes. But not dozens. (Colorado shooting was different; I'm not sure anyone could have stopped that, but then, no one had a chance to try.)
I believe that if I can stop one, or TRY to, I've done right. That takes training, mental preparation, and familiarity with the equipment.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

<snip> You are born with rights, they are given by God. It isn't in the Bible. It is in the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

Yes. That's what I meant by my abbreviated comments above.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

The problem with the idea of teachers conceal carrying is that the more likely occurence than them saving a room full of children from a lone gunman would be that their gun would be used to accidentally or intentionally injur a child in their care. It happens to the most well meaning gun owners in their own homes, but having this happen in a classroom would start a firestorm that would eclipse anything you've seen before. Also, parents have the right NOT to leave their children in the care of someone with a gun. It's dangerous. Accidents do happen. More often than gunmen break into schools.

Accidents happen, yes. But seldom when the rules of safety are followed. Training and practice are critical.

Originally Posted by AGDee

I know our first instinct is "We must find a way to stop this" but (as pessimistic as this is going to sound), I don't see any way to prevent this type of incident. You can lock all the doors, place an armed guard at the door, etc. It won't stop someone from shooting that guard first, then breaking a window to get inside.

There are a lot more precautions in place than there used to be. Schools do lockdown drills regularly. There is more security in place in most places than there was before Columbine.

I looked up some statistics, and an average of six children die daily in traffic accidents. Yes, things like Columbine and Sandy Hook are tragic. My heart hurts for the parents, siblings, grandparents and especially the children. I'm not minimizing how awful this was. But it is a rare event. Thank goodness it is a rare event, but it is a rare event. And we probably can't prevent it, without turning schools into prison like environments.

To all -- thank you. This is a solid, respectful dialog with little of the hate and vitriol that have been seen in previous discussions on this board. I, for one, truly appreciate it.