Gunman Opens Fire During "The Dark Knight Rises"

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

No. Bad analogy.

And opinions are opinions. Unlike insurance and fire extinguishers, data does not suggest that it is better to have a gun and not "need it" ("need" is relative) than to need it and not have it.

I my personal experience, on two separate occasions, I needed and had access to a gun which saved either myself or a loved one from harm without a shot being fired. I did need it, I did have it, but that is two days in 30 years of carrying a gun and I carry everyday, all the time. Seldom during the 24 hours day is a firearm out of reach. It is like a watch or cell phone to me. If I walk out the door without any of those things it is immediately noticable and I go back in and get what is missing. Did I need it those other 10,948 days? No, but I didn't know that when I left the house. I can't predict the future. I wish I could, it isn't easy carrying a gun everyday. It takes thought and consideration weighing concealment, comfort, clothing, and caliber. What data suggests that I am not correct in my statement? It would have been horrible to have not had the gun with me on those two occasions. One thing that I also learned was that if you do not see the problem coming it may be too late even if you have a gun. Awareness is key.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Rather, the data finds that owning or having access to a gun increases likelihood of victimization among law abiding civilians and the rate of offending for certain offenses. "Having it and not needing it" does not reduce the likelihood and rate of victimization.

It looks like you are saying that the access to firearms increase the chance that a law abiding individual becomes a victim of a crime? Please explain. It has not had that affect on me.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If Japan was a culture in which gun access was more highly regarded, and they lacked proper social control mechanisms in a similar fashion as the United States of America, they would most likely have a homicide rate more comparable to the United States of America (we have the highest rate among "industrialized nations").

I don't know what difference it would make if Japan has guns or not, their suicide statistics are a cultural thing, just as violent crime tends to be culturally based around the world. I do take issue with the US having the highest suicide rate of 'industrialized nations'. Japan is industrialized and their rate is higher. In fact I count the US at about 26 on the industrialized scale. Iceland, Ireland, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Sweden, New Zealand, Austria, France, Belgium, Finland, and more all have higher suicide rates than the US. We aren't even close to the highest.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

...suicide and accidents can't be removed from those numbers as they are valid types of preventable gun violence.

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

[Jeff OTMG]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I suspect that we will see their numbers rise in the coming years.

That should be interesting since all the shootings in DC were done with illegal guns. So the people who had them were criminals. Imagine that, criminals committig crime. I actually had a guy try to tell me that the high firearm death rate in DC was due to the weak gun laws in Virginia. I simply asked, why the firearm homicide rate in Virginia wasn't higher than in DC? Someday people will realize that it is the person, not the guns.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As to the supposition that you cannot decrease gun deaths, that is ridiculous. Common sense regulations, better education...the same things we did with car safety will decrease the gun death rate.

You are exactly right and that is what has been happening for years. The firearms death rate has been dropping and improved widespread safety training, concealed carry permit training, the increase in IPSC, SASS, and IDPA competitions have all helped to that end.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There is a solution to every problem, but the solution to this one is not more guns.

I don't believe that there is a solution to EVERY problem. There may be a solution to every problem at some time in the future, but not immediately.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I my personal experience, on two separate occasions, I needed and had access to a gun which saved either myself or a loved one from harm without a shot being fired. I did need it, I did have it, but that is two days in 30 years of carrying a gun and I carry everyday, all the time. Seldom during the 24 hours day is a firearm out of reach. It is like a watch or cell phone to me. If I walk out the door without any of those things it is immediately noticable and I go back in and get what is missing. Did I need it those other 10,948 days? No, but I didn't know that when I left the house. I can't predict the future. I wish I could, it isn't easy carrying a gun everyday. It takes thought and consideration weighing concealment, comfort, clothing, and caliber. What data suggests that I am not correct in my statement? It would have been horrible to have not had the gun with me on those two occasions. One thing that I also learned was that if you do not see the problem coming it may be too late even if you have a gun. Awareness is key.

Maybe, maybe not. Either way, this complex topic is not about your hypotheses and your personal experiences. Individual hypotheses and personal experiences are unreliable because people believe that they have reinvented the wheel and that their logic can defy gravity.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It looks like you are saying that the access to firearms increase the chance that a law abiding individual becomes a victim of a crime? Please explain. It has not had that affect on me.

This complex topic is not about your personal experiences. And always remember that what makes personal sense to you right now can shift in an instant if things do not go as your gun toting imagination has planned.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I don't know what difference it would make if Japan has guns or not, their suicide statistics are a cultural thing, just as violent crime tends to be culturally based around the world.

Lethal violence around the world is correlated with culture and other factors. Culture and other factors includes but is not limited to access to lethal methods and widely held practices regarding the use of lethal methods. Now that we have gotten the cultural, socioeconomic, legal, and geographic backdrop of societies out of the way....

It is interesting that you respond about culture yet you are contending that gun access would make some difference at least in the United States of America for certain forms of lethal violence. Why would gun access make a difference in the United States of America for certain forms of lethal violence (despite cultural trends that have contributed to the high rates of violent crime in the United States of America) but not in other countries and for other forms of lethal violence? And if gun access does not make a difference (no increase or decrease but instead incidents and rates stay the same) in the United States of America partly because of culture (since you bring up culture as though it is a buffer), what is the rationale behind your gun access claims?

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I do take issue with the US having the highest suicide rate of 'industrialized nations'.

I did not say that. Read my post again.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

Lethal violence and crime have always existed and will always exist. That fact does not minimize the factors that contribute to shifts in violence and crime. There are numerous factors that contribute to stagnancy, increases, and decreases in violence and crime incidents and rates. If gun access and gun culture were factors in Japan, the data over 10-20 years may reflect shifts in incidents and rates of suicide attempts and completed suicides.

People committing violence and crime will use whatever method is available. If guns are not available, the violence and crime will simply not be gun violence and gun crime. For instance, some offenders burglarize and rob without guns. That fact does not eliminate the trend of gun access on the part of the offender and the potential victim increasing the opportunity for a crime to be committed and increasing the likelihood of violence.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

On a more interesting note:

Violent theater scene to be cut from "Gangster Squad" movie

That is interesting. It reminds me of how they made changes to Spiderman (2002) in the wake of 9/11.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If this discussion must occur, it must be an accurate discussion.[/URL]

This.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It amazes me the number of people who are dancing in celebration that they have an excuse to trumpet the gun control cause.

Then you must be easily amazed, because it is about as predictable as sunrise . . . or the number of people who will use this as an excuse to lament how if only concealed carry had been allowed, lives would have been saved. As a friend posted on facebook a few days ago:

[SydneyK]

The Today show is on in the background, and I'm pretty sure I heard Savannah say that Warner Bros. is donating a substantial amount of money to the shooting victims/victims' families. I think that's unnecessary, but admirable, and I hope it's true.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

The Today show is on in the background, and I'm pretty sure I heard Savannah say that Warner Bros. is donating a substantial amount of money to the shooting victims/victims' families. I think that's unnecessary, but admirable, and I hope it's true.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...onation-353175

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account. (which by the way would make it really hard to fight off that intruder that everyone is afraid of when your gun is in a safe with a trigger lock and your bullets are stored somewhere else...anything else puts your children and family in danger which statistically is more likely that someone breaking into your house in the first place. ) I think you'll find that all of us "vitriolic" gun regulating liberals just want basic protections for people. We see gun enthusiasts balk at every single suggestion even when it comes to assault weapons, high capacity clips etc. the argument that "only the criminals will have them" is pretty lame when every time these items have been used in a mass killing in the US, the items have been bought legally.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

It amazes me the number of people who are dancing in celebration that they have an excuse to trumpet the gun control cause. You hear me Bloomberg? I see some of you calling for police and military to be allowed firearms, yet the last mass shooting was by an Army Major in 2009 at Ft Hood, TX. He killed 13 people. More than in the theater. If that is going to happen, why exempt members of the military? This shooting was an anomoly. With gun control becoming more lax over the last 18 years and concealed carry permits now available in 49 states, violent crime, including murder, is down to record lows. If you put these deaths and the situation in perspective, 14 innocent people were killed today, more than in Colorado, when a pickup truck had an accident in Texas. Those people were doing nothing more than riding down the highway, yet they died. There is no call to ban pickup trucks, but using gun control logic the tool is to blame. The deaths of innocent people at the hands of others is going to happen. You can't stop it. Death, horrible death, is a fact of life, look at the drug wars in Mexico, and we all just hope and pray that it doesn't strike to close to our friends and family.

My prayers go out to everyone touched by the tragedy in Colorado.

Yeaaahhh ... let's not fight fire with fire here, duder.

Or I guess more correctly, let's not fight post hoc/causation fallacies with one of the most incredible series of post hoc fallacies I've ever seen. Correlation is certainly not causation (and you haven't even really proven correlation), and unrelated deaths have little to no bearing on the relative merits of gun control, one way or another.

Also, stop using suicide in Japan as an example of anything - the unique cultural phenomena existent in Japan (particularly w/re: suicide) make the analogy look borderline ignorant.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It shows how little you know about suicide. Add a gun to Japan and the suicide rate would likely increase significantly. Many times the only thing standing in the way of a suicidal person and actually committing the act is an easy way to do it. Suicide by gun is also the most effective method so the attempted suicide rate would go down with a sharp increase in the successful suicide rate. Also, from my experience in emergency rooms, many cases of suicide are committed with other peoples guns, ie. parent or partner's weapon, which is why a sustained education program would help decrease deaths due to suicide as well as accidental deaths from gun violence since it is recommended that gun storage in a family home that these factors into account.

Thank you.

To go back to Jeff OTMG's logic, fire extinguishers are effective as linked with other factors that reduce the likelihood of a fire ever occurring and increase the likelihood that a fire can be contained. However, fire extinguishers would be ineffective if fire safety precautions were not used and people do not know how to use fire extinguishers. The effectiveness of fire extinguishers would be reduced if fire extinguishers increased the likelihood that a fire would occur and that the fire would be fatal. If people brought in fire extinguishers to blow birthday candles on a cake, that would be a FAIL and an unnecessarily escalation. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and said "I don't know what's next," that would be a FAIL. If people grabbed fire extinguishers and aimed it at their eyes, that would be a FAIL. If people confused the propane tank for the fire extinguisher, that would be a FAIL.

[DrPhil]

This is as ridiculous as the gun control debate.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1692859.html

I will not get into issues with the institution of religion and religious texts as literature. I will just say that Christians need to stop believing that someone being good means that they identify as Christian and someone being bad means that they did not identify as Christian. Also, Christians are not the only people who believe in a god so some Christians need to stop ranting about "God this and God that" as though that is unique to Christianity. I get into arguments with fellow Christians all of the time because many Christians have some extremist views that they would not tolerate from other religions/faith base.

/If my comments do not apply to you, do not take offense.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

No, I was saying that 50% of the gun deaths were suicides when comparing them to vehicle fatalities and that you can't count suicides because firearms do not cause suicide. It is because Sugarman needs those numbers included to make a point and makes in sound like there are more firearms homicides than vehicular deaths. It is about 50/50 but it tends to cheat more to the suicide and is closer to 55/45.



Not true. There are hundreds of thousands of new firearms entering into the general population every year yet the crime and murder rate is down, so extra guns 'floating around' (I don't know that term) do not cause extra deaths.

As far as ID's go, the required ID for purchasing a firearm is set by federal law. One thing that a student ID will show is a residency requirement set under federal law. Voting laws are controlled by indiviual states and you must be a citizen to vote. There are foreign exchange students who have student ID's, but are not allowed to vote. Under certain circumstances they may me allowed to purchase firearms. The federal law regarding foreign nationals changed under the Clinton administration.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I my personal experience, on two separate occasions, I needed and had access to a gun which saved either myself or a loved one from harm without a shot being fired. I did need it, I did have it, but that is two days in 30 years of carrying a gun and I carry everyday, all the time. Seldom during the 24 hours day is a firearm out of reach. It is like a watch or cell phone to me. If I walk out the door without any of those things it is immediately noticable and I go back in and get what is missing. Did I need it those other 10,948 days? No, but I didn't know that when I left the house. I can't predict the future. I wish I could, it isn't easy carrying a gun everyday. It takes thought and consideration weighing concealment, comfort, clothing, and caliber. What data suggests that I am not correct in my statement? It would have been horrible to have not had the gun with me on those two occasions. One thing that I also learned was that if you do not see the problem coming it may be too late even if you have a gun. Awareness is key.



It looks like you are saying that the access to firearms increase the chance that a law abiding individual becomes a victim of a crime? Please explain. It has not had that affect on me.



I don't know what difference it would make if Japan has guns or not, their suicide statistics are a cultural thing, just as violent crime tends to be culturally based around the world. I do take issue with the US having the highest suicide rate of 'industrialized nations'. Japan is industrialized and their rate is higher. In fact I count the US at about 26 on the industrialized scale. Iceland, Ireland, Canada, Denmark, Norway, Russia, China, Hong Kong, Sweden, New Zealand, Austria, France, Belgium, Finland, and more all have higher suicide rates than the US. We aren't even close to the highest.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

I agree that accidental gun deaths should not be excluded from 'gun violence' stats because the death would not have occurred otherwise. Fortunately the accidental gun death rate is at an all time low. 613 in 2007, 592 in 2008, and dropping. Having been a firearms trainer, shooter, competitor, in some way shape or form over the last 40 years and growing up in a home where my father was an FBI agent for 30 years with loaded guns in the home out in the open, I strongly urge any of you with young children to seriously look at the NRA Eddie the Eagle gun safety program. It is the best that I have ever seen. It is the most effective program available. I taught the program in schools to at risk children when I was working in Indianapolis back in 2000 and 2001.

It isn't true of suicide. People committing suicide use whatever method is available. Removing firearms from a population does not prevent suicide. See Japan.

Originally Posted by Jeff OTMG

That should be interesting since all the shootings in DC were done with illegal guns. So the people who had them were criminals. Imagine that, criminals committig crime. I actually had a guy try to tell me that the high firearm death rate in DC was due to the weak gun laws in Virginia. I simply asked, why the firearm homicide rate in Virginia wasn't higher than in DC? Someday people will realize that it is the person, not the guns.



You are exactly right and that is what has been happening for years. The firearms death rate has been dropping and improved widespread safety training, concealed carry permit training, the increase in IPSC, SASS, and IDPA competitions have all helped to that end.



I don't believe that there is a solution to EVERY problem. There may be a solution to every problem at some time in the future, but not immediately.

Please learn to multi-quote. K THX BAI.

[DrPhil]

*sigh*


Gun sales soar in Aurora.