Observations

[Lone Dog]

All of these are interesting points, and the following remain self-evident:

1) Like Doggy said, MIP isn't going anywhere. It's here to stay. So let's remember how it got to this point (lest we forget, and repeat the same mistakes) and let's look at where we go from here to make our organizations stronger.

2) When it comes to the topic of pledging/hazing: notice how the only folks who really bicker about how folks are made is the younger generation. My dad crossed Que in 1975. I crossed in 2000. And I have met dozens of bruhs with more than two decades of service. We both KNEW that I didn't go through what they went through for the exact same letters and membership. But there's no riff, there's no competition to see who is "more Que." But when I run up on someone made in the late nineties, they always ask about my process and whether I pledged grad or undergrad and assign immediate stereotypes. That, along with my record of service, activity, and lifestyle, will tell you whether I'm YOUR brother, regardless of whether my journey across the sands was harder, easier, or just different.

3) The very folks who were catching hell in the 60's, 70's, and 80's are the folks in office who made the decisison, no matter how unpopular it was, to implement MIP. We should respect the elders of the organization and their decision. Remember, it was us, those of you who are financial and actively participate in voting, etc, that put these folks into office in the first place. These folks went through REAL pledging and hazing, but they knew that for the organization's survival, they had to change. If our organizations aren't dynamic and adaptable, they will surely die. This isn't to say that our core principles and idelas should be compromised, because they shouldn't. The beliefs should live on regardless of the environment in which they are to be fostered.

4) Some of the people who were hazed or pledged the most are now inactive. Some of the people who skated in are inactive. And you have people from both categories who are active. So the process of coming into the frat/sorority isn't the determining factor of your service in the org. So why the bickering? There should be much more of a discussion between those active and those not active within the organization. Folks, we ALL took an oath on our journey across those sands. Are you living your creed? Probably.

In my opinion, this is what it boils down to: we, as members, need to be a better judge of the character of the people we let into our organizations. The problems we have don't necessarily stem from prospectives, but from members. So if we train our folks to look for the right qualities as evidenced by the ACTIVITIES and LIFESTYLE of the prospectives, we fix alot of problems that occur internally by letting the wrong element in our organizations. Everybody isn't cut out for Que, Delta, SGRho, etc. We should seek members with a discerning spirit. That's what gives each of us our uniqueness, though our ultimate goals are quite similar. We should be the Talented Tenth that the Alpha WEB DuBois spoke of. I believe that was our orginal commission. And we should seek others who want to be in that sort of company. Undoubtedly, a few bad seeds may slip through the crack, but they SHOULD quickly find that they are the exception, and their ambiguous attitude should quickly be changed by the fraternal company they keep.

If we elect the proper people to membership, then the process becomes less of a factor. And it's because we have shown the light to those who truly seek it and have a burning desire to live it, and not to those who want Que because the ladies love us, we hop the best, or have a tendency to show quite a bit of enthusiasm.

ROOOO

[ladygreek]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
... Those being legal, risk management, collegiate rules and regs, the media, and most of all, big donors.

What many of us do not notice is that now that each of our orgs are 501C corporations, we are bound by U.S tax regulations. As such, the U.S. govt can determine indirectly, how each of our orgs should operate. Therefore, any membership rules have to meet "their" standards. Anything construed as hazing, even as innocuous as dressing alike, will jeopardize that coveted tax exempt status. If you lose that designation, you lose sponsors, partners, and organizations that make donations to tax exempt service orgs.

Right now, on the national level, our fraternal organizations are businesses (beyond internal maintenance). That is their priority. If the brotherhood/sisterhood of those organizations suffer, so be it, as long as the business aspect remains strong. The impact on unity is seen as a viable trade-off to the interests of the "big picture". 10 years from now, their will be no undergraduate initiation, because it is becoming more of an onus andless of a necessity to the greater interests of the orgs themselves.

While I cannot speak for the other BGLOs I can say that DST is a 501 c(7), catagorized as a membership organization and not a 501 c(3) which is a charitable organization. Donations to c(7)s are not tax deductible for the donor. Therefore, donors give to our orgs for reasons other than our tax status.

The liabilities of hazing extend beyond our tax-exempt status (which simply means that we do not pay tax on any income we receive--unless it is non-business related.) It extends to the very existence of our organizations. Being hit with law suits to the tune of millions of dollars will bankrupt us. What we stand to lose is our insurance coverage thus wiping us out financially. We all have bills to pay--mortgages on headquarter buildings, staff salaries, operating expenses, etc. Without our infrastructures we will no longer exist. And yes we must maintain the very core of our orgs.--sisterhood and brotherhood--but these alone will not pay the bills. So if we are to maintain our core values as well as our infrastructures we must refrain from the very behavior that is threatening both--HAZING! JMHO

[DoggyStyle82]

Originally posted by Lone Dog

2) When it comes to the topic of pledging/hazing: notice how the only folks who really bicker about how folks are made is the younger generation. My dad crossed Que in 1975. I crossed in 2000. And I have met dozens of bruhs with more than two decades of service. We both KNEW that I didn't go through what they went through for the exact same letters and membership. But there's no riff, there's no competition to see who is "more Que." But when I run up on someone made in the late nineties, they always ask about my process and whether I pledged grad or undergrad and assign immediate stereotypes. That, along with my record of service, activity, and lifestyle, will tell you whether I'm YOUR brother, regardless of whether my journey across the sands was harder, easier, or just different.

Good point, but not entirely accurate. I'm closer to your father's year than yours and plenty of Brothers from the 30's to now don't like the process. They don't beef as much because they are so far removed from collegiate life and most of their dealings with the frat is mostly based on either business or service, while undergrads and recent grads are still focused on fraternizing/brotherhood. Your peer group questions you based upon similar circumstances. When I speak with older financial Bruhs, I'll ask them how they chaired a committee or about service ideas along with "how were things back in the day?" The questions you ask were never asked in the 70's or 80's

3) The very folks who were catching hell in the 60's, 70's, and 80's are the folks in office who made the decisison, no matter how unpopular it was, to implement MIP. We should respect the elders of the organization and their decision. Remember, it was us, those of you who are financial and actively participate in voting, etc, that put these folks into office in the first place. These folks went through REAL pledging and hazing, but they knew that for the organization's survival, they had to change. If our organizations aren't dynamic and adaptable, they will surely die. This isn't to say that our core principles and idelas should be compromised, because they shouldn't. The beliefs should live on regardless of the environment in which they are to be fostered.

4) Some of the people who were hazed or pledged the most are now inactive. Some of the people who skated in are inactive. And you have people from both categories who are active. So the process of coming into the frat/sorority isn't the determining factor of your service in the org. So why the bickering?

Here is where you miss the point Lone Dog. Being a member of a fraternity is not all about service. First and foremost, we are a bonded brotherhood. The significance of the bond is frequently determined by how one became a member. If I or any aspirant for that matter, wants to do service, there are many avenues in which to do so. I have church brothers, Concerned Black Men brothers and Boy Scout of America brothers. I do service with them all, but I have only one set of Bruhs.

In my opinion, this is what it boils down to: we, as members, need to be a better judge of the character of the people we let into our organizations.

Before, we didn't "let" anybody in. You had to earn your membership through a lot of sweat and tears. We judged character through a process that weeded out a lot of fakers. Pledging not only tests character, it reveals it. No, alot of those who pledged are not financial, but at least they were committed to being a brother.

If we elect the proper people to membership, then the process becomes less of a factor. And it's because we have shown the light to those who truly seek it and have a burning desire to live it, and not to those who want Que because the ladies love us, we hop the best, or have a tendency to show quite a bit of enthusiasm.

Elect?, you might as well make them honorary. Choose the students with the best grades and most service? Is it that easy?My brothers weren't elected. They sought Omega, then pledged Omega, then through hard work, sweat, tears, some blood, EARNED Omega. Yeah, times are different, and I can move on from nostalgia, but our organizations will never be as strong or as relevant as they once were because we have sacrificed the ultimate lynchpin of frat/soror life, that is the bond of brother/sisterhood

Bruh, you definitely have good ideas. I wish all Bruhs thought as hard and tried to make a difference as you seem to want to make.
ROOOO

[SHU QUE]

I pledged what is considered "old School" (Pre intake) and the Brothers that pledged me were extremely resposible bruhs. I had what I considered the perfect pledge program....Yes it was hot, but we did learn not only our own frat history but we even learned history of other Black Greek Organizations And Black History in general. We also learned True brotherhood (being your brothers keeper), something that I think is lacking with current intake programs. We knew (and still know) every aspect of our line brother. You see lines of 50 or more now and it's really sad that these men/women really don't know eachother. My older brother pledged Alpha in Fall of 72 and back then they wouldnt even take the line OVEr unless they were satisfied that they either knew eachother well or were ONE as a line. What can we do about this......Who knows? I think maybe we should institute a "bootcamp" like the military......maybe that would work....I don't know?

[TLAW]

Speaking casually to an old-head Omega this week, I got an interesting perspective on this much-battered topic. He said, tongue-in-cheek, that the perception of pledging as either "real'' or "skating" was relative. What he meant was that he and his peers unconsciously assume that newer members have an easier process than his era. Funnily enough, he opined, Omegas that crossed long before him say the same about the process after their time. I thought it was interesting dichotomy. Is "pledging" in the eyes of the beholder(s)?

[SHU QUE]

I guess you could say pledging is in the eye of the beholder. I pledged in spr 85. and I know bruhs from Spr 83 that thought i had it easy. And I remember when i was a young looking at Spr 86,87,88 ect. as "skaters". It'a all relative.

[earthchild1913]

Greetings Bruhs and Sorors! First let me say that this is a great topic to discuss because as you know, all Greeks do not agree on this issue. But as for me, let me say that although my journey into DST was a terrific one, I made it through nonetheless. I am thankful for what my pros taught me--because if it wasn't for that knowledge I would not know how to appreciate my wondereful sorority. My pros turned my "interest" in DST into my " love" for DST. However that was in the days of 1997-98, and I must say the process has changed. Pledging sessions have turned into haze sessions. The love was lost somewhere along the path b/c a pro wanted a neo to earn his s**t the way he/she did. And one thing leads to another and later it leads to violence. And that is not what Greek life exemplifies. But I must say that I appreciate my MIP, I learned to realize the importance of what my founders accomplished. Peace and Blessings

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82
Dawg, that is good to hear about your process. Generally, I was speaking about other orgs. Having had an above ground pledge period and running around on the yard as a Lamp, was tremendous. I think all Greeks are being cheated by MIT. There was never a real vs. fake debate or paper vs pledging. There were skaters, but even they pledged. I don't see how one can be an Omega without being both a Lamp and a Dog. I have met members of each org who have no ideal of what their respective pledgees are called during Hell Week, but then again, there is no such thing. It is just that valuable traditions, history, bonding moments, and the essence of what the org is about is learned during pledging. I am just grateful that I pledged when the process had meaning. I could really write a book on the value of a good pledge program. Todays opinions on pledging are distorted because intake people think that it is about a beatdown and that was never really the case. Its about marching on the yard, greeting big bruhs in public, serenading the Deltas, being dressed alike, social silence, the Lamp Stare, the Dog Grit, not walking on grass, always running, never seen walking or eating in public, the unbreakable chain, six men living, sleeping, and eating together, never separated for six weeks, crossing "real" sands together, a sense of accomplishment and rightful entitlement. Knowing everyone on the yard gives you props because they saw and heard your hardships and know that you did something that they wish that they had the heart to do. Lawsuits were unheard of in the 80's (unless someone was permanently disfigured of killed) You couldn't sue for taking wood or getting your feelings hurt like people do now. Oh well, sorry for the sermon

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by Lone Dog
I know this topic has been hashed to death, but let me put my 11 in.....

Whether you pledge Que or come into Omega via MIP....you will pledge. Let me explain, say a prospective starts intake on a Sunday and is made a member the following Saturday. As soon as he puts on that Que 'nalia, or as soon as he lets out a ROOO in public.... someone will be in his grill chargin' him. Lord help him if he doesn't display his Principles or know his info. It's SOOO HARD to be Omega! He will earn those letters and constantly prove he deserves to wear them, or else he'll be stripped of them, as well as his pride. Omega men are brave and courageous men who fear no one or nothing but God Himself.

So, MIP can come in if they want, but if they reach for their financial card when a bruh is challenging them, he'll be receiving some uplift. Period. It's that simple. There are many ways TO Omega, but only one way INTO Omega....blood, sweat, and tears.

I will shut up after I say this: I was always told "It's harder to BE a bruh than it is to BECOME a bruh." And how true that rings. Think about this, you can't haze a member, only a prospective. So once you're in, whatcha gonna do?

Omega is NOT a violent frat. It wasn't founded on that and it doesn't condone it. HOWEVER, whether you came in MIP or pledged, don't disrespect your self or the frat by not exemplifying the qualities of an Omega man and not knowing detailed information on the very organization that you CHOSE to join. IT doesn't end when you cross the sands to Omega... it's just the beginning... PLEASE, whoever you are, don't come into this frat lukewarm and not ready to work.

TRUST ME, the road INTO Omega is HARD. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it. Be out or stay home...the choice is yours. Because as soon as you hit door, them tenacious porch dogs will get ta barkin'....know enough to avoid the bite.

ROOOOOOO




------------------
T.J.
Da Nasty Lone Dog
1-Phi Omicron-SMR '00

I've seen it happen!

[MsHanky]

As a little girl, I longed to experience what my AUNT did with her duckteam--to be decked from head to toe in matching outfits (a different one each day, for whatever weather, and with appropriate accessories) designated by my Big Sisters; to immediately jump in line when I spotted my LSs across the yard after class; to delete the words "I" and "me" completely from my vocabulary; to eat in unison, and carry bricks and goody boxes, etc... All that protocol and pageantry would give me and my LSs a feeling of ONE-NESS that would endure until death.

I feel you soror...

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by the411
Hell, the semester I PLEDGED, resulted in my highest GPA ever! That's because my process was so structured and demanding, that I had no choice but to exercise time management and discipline! There was no room for procrastination or half-steppin! If the paper was due in 4 weeks, I wouldn't wait to do it-- I did is ASAP to get it out of the way! My LSs and I had copies of each other's syllabi so that we KNEW who had to do what and when. We'd encourage each other to get it done, so that we wouldn't be distracted or mentally preoccupied when we were doing DST stuff. Also, my Bigs checked up on our classroom attendance by requiring us to get our prof's signatures EVERYDAY! There was NO class-skipping for us--that was UNACCEPTABLE! I had my best attendance that sememster, too! I spent more time studying (in our special "study room") than I'd ever done before because, as any Delta knows, the "academic" aspect of DST's process is like taking a grad course! Before I made line (and the sememster after I'd crossed), I'd chill between classes, take mid-day naps, play on the computer, etc. Then, by mid-terms and finals, I'd be running around like a chicken with my head cut off, trying to complete papers and study for exams. If you're undergoing a GOOD PLEDGESHIP, you will be too disciplined and focused for that kind of behavior. So, pledging for me meant being on top of my game and handling all my academic business ASAP. That's what enabled me to do so well academically. Yes, I was barely awake in class from pulling all-nighters, but all my work got done. So, by the time things started heating up, my most time-consuming class projects were already finished! Too bad I wasn't still pledging during my last 3 quarters--I would have graduated magna cum laude!

And I'm Out!

This is a nice concept...

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by phive2life
I know that's right!! On my yard there are LITERALLY students taking part-time loads just to be greek. Is it really that serious for you to push graduation back? There may be some things that I wish I could change about my MIP, but I can't so I just have to do what needs to be done. Besides, I would rather be the one that went through a MIP and remained active in my org, than PLEDGE and be a t-shirt wearer. But, it's like I said before......YOU MUST GO THROUGH IN ORDER TO GET TO!!

Why are you assuming that people who pledge will be t-shirt wearers?

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by OhSoVeryLadylike
Greetings to the members of this board.
I am not Greek, merely an observer of this forum.
I too agree with the many who advocate PLEDGING. Because there is indeed a difference between Hazing and Pledging. I personally feel that there is nothing wrong with walking in line, while online, living together as one, dressing alike and basically humbling yourself to your organization. All pre-MIP processes(i.e. pledging) were meant to create cohesion amongst the members the line. Bondage and togetherness is a great and special part of any brother or sisterhood. To basically come in an take that away takes away the spirit upon with BGLOs were created.
And like someone said most of the hazing that has made the news has occurred after the banning of pledging.

These are just my opinions.

My question is, why do things like walk in a line without doing the other stuff that goes along with it? There are reasons why people remain in a line and it's not to look cute. I think ppl too often want the glory and attention of doing stuff like dressing alike, walking in lines, and greeting big sisters and big brothers without the hardhip that comes with it. But, what would I know about that?

[ladygreek]

MsHanky
You do know this thread is 2 years old--right? I just said that to say the people your quoted maynot still be on the board to answer you.

[MsHanky]

Originally posted by ladygreek
MsHanky
You do know this thread is 2 years old--right? I just said that to say the people your quoted maynot still be on the board to answer you.

Yeah, I know. I was just bored and searching through old threads and thought maybe someone would respond. Thanks though.