We didn't hang that flag, say fraternity/Greenville, NC

[shinerbock]

I came back just in time. I'm not painting Jackson as anything. Was he racist? I have no idea. Did he do things that many considered racist? Yes.

Heres my take on Jackson: He pushed so hard against the Lester Maddox's of the world, that he pursued his goals beyond equality. I think he wanted black people to control Atlanta, and for black businesses to be the most successful in Atlanta. Unfortunately, while fighting whatever inequality was left behind following the civil rights era, he and others refused to notice what was happening to the city, and refused to blame the black community for many of the problems.

He probably did some good things for Atlanta, but he also did some pretty bad things as well. Thus, many people were upset by tacking his name onto Hartsfield Airport.

*Another note, about the confederate flag...I, and most everyone I know, would think a black guy flying the confederate flag was awesome. Not because it is a novelty thing, but rather because here is somebody, who although a different race, believes in and takes pride in our (and likely his) southern heritage. Obviously people do fly it for racist reasons, but I think if it were generally a race thing, white people would be upset at blacks flying it. People need to realize that just because individuals or groups protest or dislike things that are involved in black culture does not make them racist.

[Rudey]

Take another Economics class.

-Rudey
--And then start making sense.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

I hope you didn't study economics in college, because it taught you nothing. Slavery is ANTI-CAPITALISM, by every sense of the word. Slavery destroyed capitalism and the economy of the south, because it lowered wages. It did well for the wealthy upper-class, but left most in the dirt. If you have a lot of people you aren't paying, it means that those who are free are being paid very little for their work, because someone could get a slave to do that job for free.

Furthermore, one realizes that the Africans put themselves in this spot because the tribes sold rival hostage tribes to slave traders. Earlier in this trade, the Arabs would take the slaves from Africa to Europe, but Europe abolished the trade.


I believe you needed to understand the economical and historical aspects of the situation.


This is difficult to prove. People don't all of a sudden say "oh, these aren't real people so we can enslave them." There must have been plenty of racial feelings waay before slavery began. It may have evolved further to accomodate the slave trade, but it didn't all of a sudden begin to reinforce slaves.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I don’t think in any of my posts I have mentioned anything of the confederacy.

Sure you did, but you are correct that you never said that the Bonnie Blue flag was a Confederate flag.
My comment was meant as a general one, using your reference to the Bonnie Blue flag simply since it was the most recent one.

Given the general context of this thread is the use (misuse?) of Confederate flags, and given that quite a few people do think of the Bonnie Blue flag as a Confederate flag, and not without reason, it seemed like a clarification worth making. That is all.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I came back just in time. I'm not painting Jackson as anything. Was he racist? I have no idea. Did he do things that many considered racist? Yes.

Heres my take on Jackson: He pushed so hard against the Lester Maddox's of the world, that he pursued his goals beyond equality. I think he wanted black people to control Atlanta, and for black businesses to be the most successful in Atlanta. Unfortunately, while fighting whatever inequality was left behind following the civil rights era, he and others refused to notice what was happening to the city, and refused to blame the black community for many of the problems.

He probably did some good things for Atlanta, but he also did some pretty bad things as well. Thus, many people were upset by tacking his name onto Hartsfield Airport.

So where's the racism? It reads like he wanted to challenge the status quo and empower a community of people that had been in disproportionate poverty, underemployment, and poor education. One city in this country where blacks are successful business owners and are advancing hardly constitutes a system of racism (including actions and ideologies) where thousands to millions of people are given unequal life chances. Whites weren't given the short end of the stick in all of this--the playing field was just leveled.

You said "racist"--but now you all backtracking and saying he did things that "many" considered "racist." I hate it when people throw catch phrases and terms around and have absolutely no basis for it.

[KAY10]

I wish this country would put that flag to rest. It serves no purpose but to intimidate people of color. I hate that flag.

[sdsuchelle]

Originally Posted by KAY10

I wish this country would put that flag to rest. It serves no purpose but to intimidate people of color. I hate that flag.

AGREED.

I don't understand why people say it represents Southern pride. What, that you're proud your region fought to keep slavery legal?

Even if it *did* represent Southern pride, it doesn't anymore. The swastika was used for tons of things before the Nazis took it... so does that mean it's okay to use? No, it's become a hateful symbol in today's culture.

The Confederate Flag is pointless and racist. If people want to fly it, fine, but I'm going to assume that they're a bigot, because that's what it means to me (and many other people).

PS: We're all Americans -- why try to seperate yourselves because you're from the South? Does that make you better than everyone else? I mean, I don't have a flag of California hanging on my wall.

[KAY10]

Originally Posted by sdsuchelle

AGREED.

I don't understand why people say it represents Southern pride. What, that you're proud your region fought to keep slavery legal?

Even if it *did* represent Southern pride, it doesn't anymore. The swastika was used for tons of things before the Nazis took it... so does that mean it's okay to use? No, it's become a hateful symbol in today's culture.

The Confederate Flag is pointless and racist. If people want to fly it, fine, but I'm going to assume that they're a bigot, because that's what it means to me (and many other people).

PS: We're all Americans -- why try to seperate yourselves because you're from the South? Does that make you better than everyone else? I mean, I don't have a flag of California hanging on my wall.

LOL. The California flag. Too funny.

Wow. I didn't know the swastika was used before the Nazis used it. Kool. I learned something.

P.S. Well said. Strong sorority too.

[sdsuchelle]

Originally Posted by KAY10

Wow. I didn't know the swastika was used before the Nazis used it. Kool. I learned something.

Yep, this is from about.com:

"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."

[KAY10]

Originally Posted by sdsuchelle

Yep, this is from about.com:

"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."

Hey, thanks a lot.

[shinerbock]

When you favor black business over white business, because they are owned by blacks, thats racism. When you attempt to stack the city's boards and comm. with black people, thats probably racism. I'll refrain again from really calling him a racist, because I don't know what his motivations were. However, to many at the time, he seemed to heighten racial tension through is apparently biased actions. As for throwing around the term "racist," I really don't need a lecture on it. After all, as a conservative on this board, I get called racist for simply saying things against affirmative action. There are probably better communities who should be served with your comments on the use of the term "racist"...

Regarding the flag, it obviously has purpose other than "intimidating" black people. Saying otherwise is just stupid.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by sdsuchelle

Yep, this is from about.com:

"The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck."

The swastika was the pre-WWII emblem of the 45th Infantry Division.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by ktsnake

The swastika was the pre-WWII emblem of the 45th Infantry Division.

Oh, do you mean the Rainbow Division?

The so called Swastka was used years before Hitler by the American Indian for Ritual Purposes.

No matter how much somthing may be disliked, it is still HISTORY and History will not dissapear will it? It cannot be changed as it happened.

I can understand the hatred of the Nazia Flag sort of, it has more History for the symbol than many think.

Do any of us think that The American Flag years back was loved by the British? Is it so loved today by others in the world?

Symbol yes, but it is also History no matter what. It is not going away. History never does.

[jon1856]

Another interesting thread that I do not believe I just spent over ten minutes reading....

A few things here
Flags and Battle Flags:
http://www.nps.gov/gett/gettkidz/flag.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_o...tes_of_America

There is new, on going research into information on Blacks serving in the CSA Army. Pick up back copies of Civil War News ( Not sure if on web site www.civilwarnews.com )

As for 'use' of the CSA flag....IMHO, it was miss used after the War Between the States. Many a good man, boy, woman and girl ( yes, women did fight in the war ) fought, bled, and died along side their friends and statesman under it. All were Americans. Most of the soldiers, on the fields of battle, did not care about nor perhaps understand the larger politices or economice issuies of the war. they were fighting for their towns, their states, their friends. General Lee even believed that the slaves should have been freed.
And in some ways, I believe that many groups today are using it fpr purposes of their own making and needs.

As for today, I have rather mixed feelings. I go down to FL and no one says anything about their state flag. Look at it with some care..can cause you to wonder.......

The perseption of it use falls on the people who see it and the people who use it.

Now, in the case that this thread started with if the flag was NOT up until the march/activity was about to start my belief is that the people who hung were out to make trouble.

I have been to many Reenactments, both in the North and in the South, and I never have heard or seen anything being said or done 'wrong' in any of the camps. Many reencators go into roles-live and speak as if they are in the 1800's. And I have seen both women and black soldiers on both sides.

Several years ago, in the Mid-west, a "group" thought that it would have a march during a reenactment. Somehow got it into their minds that the CSA troops would join them.

What happen was not their dream but a nightmare.

News of this march got into the camps. The reenactment came to a stop as the camps first gathered in their areas and then joined up behind their combined flag honor guards. The troops all had their "pig-stickers" fixed and locked.

The "group" took one look and ran or fled for hills.

Everyone else was very happy.

Time for dinner-where in is that Dinner thread.......

[Tom Earp]

Thank You, a very good post and a big learning lesson to many who are so young and have no clue about the Civil War per say!

It was not all about "Gone With The Wind".

While I have said for years, it was economics there are many who will argue about it.

It is also amazing "How Many Slaves" stayed with their White Families and did fight for the Rebs in the Civil War.

For Robert E. Lee, He was one of the finest Generals of His time. I am glad to be related to Him! If all Historians will check it out they a will find it true.

But if you want to press the slavery issue then actually check out about which you speak. Then come back and disscus it properly.

Thanks,

[KAY10]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

When you favor black business over white business, because they are owned by blacks, thats racism. When you attempt to stack the city's boards and comm. with black people, thats probably racism. I'll refrain again from really calling him a racist, because I don't know what his motivations were. However, to many at the time, he seemed to heighten racial tension through is apparently biased actions. As for throwing around the term "racist," I really don't need a lecture on it. After all, as a conservative on this board, I get called racist for simply saying things against affirmative action. There are probably better communities who should be served with your comments on the use of the term "racist"...

Regarding the flag, it obviously has purpose other than "intimidating" black people. Saying otherwise is just stupid.

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. It's wrong, but you're still entitled to it.