Why are there no black members in Phi Kappa Psi? Another view

[sugar and spice]

Amen.

All of these people are posting things like, "Well, at work I know this girl who said that she USED to be an Alpha Phi . . ." "I have a friend who tells me that she was an A Chi O in college." At this board you are confronted with several hundred alumni (at least) who are proud to say "I AM an XYZ" and are still very involved in their organizations. Why do their experiences collectively count less than the ONE "ex-ABC" you know from work?

[nauadpi]

I just want to post an example of women staying involved in a NPC sorority. Those comments are something I feel I can comment on, while some other facts in here I dont think I really have a place to comment on them. But as I was saying.

I am a member of Alpha Delta Pi sorority. As a secret society for women we have been around for almost 152 years now. Every other year we have grand convention. This year it is expected for aproximatly 500 members to attend grand convention. Each of the 132 collegiate chapters will send their chapter presidents. In addition to that maybe 1 more representitive from the chapter will be able to attend. That adds up to 264 collegiate members. To be generous let us round that to 300 collegiate members. That entails that in the middle of a week when convention is heald some 200 alumna members will be attending convention. In addition to that I would like to add that one of the time honored traditions at Convention is "Old Timers Night." One specific tradition that night is to have people stand up for how many conventions they have attended. They start at one and see how long women are standing. It was found to be a tie between two women, one initiated in 1933 and the other in 1927. Both received a standing ovation from those in attendence. A hard note, was the the third women normally standing with these two to the end had recently been admited to the hospital.

In addition to everyting at convention there are also over 150 alumnae adpi chapters around the world. And an amazing recent story I have presonally seen, was when my chapter's new advisor was able to see one of her collegiate sisters that she had not seen in over 30 years. It was one of the more emotional moments in my life.

I hope my examples will give some perspective out there.

[zchi2]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
But you're missing my point -- the point is that for every anecdote, there's always a similar anecdote. I'm going to keep saying it until someone hears me: anecdotal evidence does not mean that something is a fact!

Us folks in the NPC/NIC have said time and time again in this thread (and elsewhere) that when we signed on the dotted line, we did it for life, but no matter how many times we say it, someone offers up an anecdote about someone who says "I was a...." as if that anecdote rules our commitments null and void! I'm really tired of it!

Think of all the anecdotes we've heard over the years about black men who are robbers/rapists/murderers. Yet none of us (meaning minority folks) would so much as think that ALL black men are like this. Why then is it okay to suggest that just because Mary Ann from Purchasing says "I used to be an Alpha Phi" that it means that everybody in the NPC/NIC feels like this? What is implied is "If Mary Ann said it then it must be like that all over" -- that's the perception that I get when I see it over and over again -- I can't speak for anyone else but myself.

That's a question I'd love to get an answer to, but as someone who's on both sides of the issue, I think I know why I'll never get a satisfactory answer. That's cool -- but I'm going to keep calling B.S. when I see it.

Oh, and as to why it's okay/not okay to ask someone to justify their choice: when you're asking that question of a minority person who decided to "go against the grain", what is unspoken is a suggestion that somehow you've deserted "your people" by making that choice. The level of condescension is subtle -- but it's there.

Just like you don't think people see your point, I really don't think you are seeing my point, which is ok. What is wrong with saying that someone joined XYZ organization coming in knowing that they were going to be a member for life and another person joins ABC organization thinking that it's only a group for the college years but after being a full member realizes that they want remain active post graduation? Why can't we as members of Greek organizations see something positive in another greek organization such as the involvement of their alumni and congratulate them. Just because I think another sorority might do something better than mine doesn't mean I think my sorority is bad. Instead of saying, "I know a sister over in Mississippi that has been an active member for 80 years..." What we all need to say is "this organization over here has an OVERALL greater percentage of active alum in their organization. Let's see what they are doing that we aren't so that we can make our organization better."

[GPhiBLtColonel]

But you're missing my point -- the point is that for every anecdote, there's always a similar anecdote. I'm going to keep saying it until someone hears me: anecdotal evidence does not mean that something is a fact!

Amen sistermadly!

[sugar and spice]

Originally posted by zchi2
Just like you don't think people see your point, I really don't think you are seeing my point, which is ok. What is wrong with saying that someone joined XYZ organization coming in knowing that they were going to be a member for life and another person joins ABC organization thinking that it's only a group for the college years but after being a full member realizes that they want remain active post graduation? Why can't we as members of Greek organizations see something positive in another greek organization such as the involvement of their alumni and congratulate them. Just because I think another sorority might do something better than mine doesn't mean I think my sorority is bad. Instead of saying, "I know a sister over in Mississippi that has been an active member for 80 years..." What we all need to say is "this organization over here has an OVERALL greater percentage of active alum in their organization. Let's see what they are doing that we aren't so that we can make our organization better."

Look up. I'm not sure about anybody else, but I know for a fact that I wrote: "Now obviously the level of post-collegiate involvement [in the NIC and NPC] is not the same as that of the NPHC organizations." I think that it's fantastic that the NPHC can retain so many of their members and keep them involved in their organizations so long after graduation, and I will fully admit that they do a better job of that than the NPC and NIC groups. What I don't understand is why many NPHC members seem unwilling to extend the NPC and NIC groups the same courtesy and respect that many, many of our alumni DO stay active in our organizations. I don't see why the fact that they know one member who says things like "I was an ABC in college" nullifies the many many alumnae who post here and still admit that they ARE ABCs and are involved with ABC to this day.

I don't think anybody is trying to disrespect NPHC organizations. It's a fully recognizable fact that they do a fantastic job at making their members see that they are members for life. What many of the NIC and NPC members posting here are saying is that just because you know one or two or five people who were "only members of their organization in college" doesn't mean that our sororities and fraternities aren't lifetime commitments for thousands and thousands more of their members.

[valpogal99]

"What we all need to say is ‘this organization over here has an OVERALL greater percentage of active alum in their organization. Let's see what they are doing that we aren't so that we can make our organization better.’” Zchi2, what NATIONAL statistics do you have to back up your comment?

How do any of us know that Nationally any organization has a greater overall percentage of active alums than any other? Beyond that, how does one classify active? Do you count the Alums that are posting to this board? Or do you have to attend a function in person? If so, how many functions do you have to attend. I am sure we all have different answers to these questions.

I belong to 2 Alumnae Associations in the KC area (we have 3). Both the groups are VERY active with a minimum of 1 function a month. I also serve on a corp board for a local chapter. Does that mean I am more involved than many of my sisters who send letters and care packages to the chapter at which we were initiated. I wouldn’t. I would still say they were just as involved as I am. Involvement is hard to measure and hard to track. I don't think it is fair for any of us to say that an organization has a greater percentage of active alum. There is no real way to measure this.

I can tell you that Chi Omega and Kappa Delta have very active online Alumnae groups (with both of them well over 500 members). Does this mean that those members are involved with the sorority? What if they posts once a year? What if that post is to say Happy Holidays to everyone? Are they involved? Who makes that call? Are they involved if they wear letters or their badge once a year? I can also tell you that Alpha Delta Pi has strong Alumnae support as well. Again, there is no way to measure the percentage of members involved because there is no firm definition of the word "involvement".

I know that one of my local ADPi Alumnae organizations has 148 dues paying members. But do you have to pay dues to be involved as an Alum? Not according to our Nationals, although to some you do. Because of this, involvement can't be based on paying members. This illustrates several of my points. No one can make a fair judgement on who is and who is not involved.

The other problem is that there is now way to compare apples to apples in this scenario. The purpose and group size of the organization make it impossible to compare all the GLO's on equal ground. For example, a local organization that has 45 member and has been around for 5 years and still has 42 members active cannot be compared to an International organization with over 100,000 members that has been around for 150 years.

I agree with Zchi2 that we should look at other organization’s strong points and ask if we can improve our group. However, I think we also need to look at all the facts and ask if a fair comparison of the groups can be made and if we have all the facts before we start changing because someone said they were better in some area. In this case, I haven't seen any undeniable facts that say any one organization has a higher percentage than any other organization. Instead, I have read a lot of posts with people who PERCEIVE their organizations have more involvement. Show me FACTS if you want to change my mind.

[12dn94dst]

Interesting discussion with many valid points being brought up.

Regarding the point of who is/is not considered a member/active after receiving a degree can all be wrapped up in one thing that someone mentioned earlier & I quoted, but I guess it got lost in the shuffle:

How does your organization define a member?

Is a member someone who is enrolled at least half-time in an accredited college or university seeking his/her first degree?

or

Is a member a single person who fits the above qualification? (I have read on this board where in some organizations one has to "go alum" if she gets married before she graduates)

or

Is a member someone who pays dues to the national organization?


As an example, Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. defines a member as a soror who pays dues to a local chapter & Grand Chapter or who pays member at large fees. We further define a soror as a woman who has been duly initiated. Depending on how a particular organization defines a member, your view is different.

In short, we're comparing apples & oranges. (aren't we always)

As a point of fact, 76% of Delta's members (see above definition) are Alumnae.

[Sistermadly]

Originally posted by 12dn94dst

How does your organization define a member?

From http://www.alphaphi.org:
Alpha Phis are members of a lifelong sisterhood, a woman’s fraternity.

I won't quote directly from our constitution & by-laws, but it says very clearly that membership is traditionally based in the college chapters but continues after graduation as an alumnae member (emphasis mine). It also says that membership can also begin as an alumna initiate, one whose experience begins outside of the college experience (emphasis mine). A member in good standing is one who meets Fraternity and chapter fiinancial obligations.

But what does this prove? Every organization has different rules in their constitutions.

IMO, the issue in this particular thread hijack isn't membership requirements, it's the constant reiteration of the suggestion that NPC/NIC members aren't as committed to their organization as folks in the NPHC (or NALFO, or MCGLOs). Things are different -- and that's okay!

[DELTAQTE]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
Because at some point, it becomes a bit like trying to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time, and it annoys the pig.

Well I'm glad some of my black leaders didn't stop "teaching" the pig to sing, heck I've seen a pig play a piano before on "The gong show" and SOMEONE had to put in enough time to teach him!

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
But what does this prove? Every organization has different rules in their constitutions.

EXACTLY!

Not only do the rules vary by organization, perception & intrepretation of those rules varies by individual. Hence the sticking point in the thread hijack.

Originally posted by Sistermadly
IMO, the issue in this particular thread hijack isn't membership requirements, it's the constant reiteration of the suggestion that NPC/NIC members aren't as committed to their organization as folks in the NPHC (or NALFO, or MCGLOs).

The only way to dispell that myth would be to provide the numbers. In a discussion such as this, we can only go by what we're heard or read until someone proves us otherwise. To co-sign with valpogal99's statement, provide us some numbers to work with so that people who are making the statement that alumni/ae NIC/NPC members aren't as active as alumnae/i NPHC members can see where they're going wrong (or right maybe?). I don't think it's that hard to say "XYZ defines a member as someone with pink hair & yellow spots who pays dues to the national body. Undergraduates comprise 56% of our membership and alumnae/i comprise 44%." True enough, only going by those who pay dues is not a totally accurate gague, but the national organization really only has two sets of numbers to go by when counting members: the number initiated and the number currently sending in a check. So we have to work with what we've got.

[MysticCat]

Originally posted by Sistermadly
IMO, the issue in this particular thread hijack isn't membership requirements, it's the constant reiteration of the suggestion that NPC/NIC members aren't as committed to their organization as folks in the NPHC (or NALFO, or MCGLOs).

Originally posted by 12dn94dst
The only way to dispell that myth would be to provide the numbers. In a discussion such as this, we can only go by what we're heard or read until someone proves us otherwise. To co-sign with valpogal99's statement, provide us some numbers to work with so that people who are making the statement that alumni/ae NIC/NPC members aren't as active as alumnae/i NPHC members can see where they're going wrong (or right maybe?).

No, it's not really the only way to dispel the myth. Another way is to reiterate what you've already said -- people are comparing apples and oranges. Apples and oranges are being mixed again here. Sistermadly referred to being "committed" to organizations, and you refer to alumni "activity." That is a way to evaluate alumni commitment, but not the only way.

Seems pretty simple to me -- different organizations may not only have different understandings of membership, but may also have varying understandings of how members demonstrate commitment. It may be that with one group, that commitment is demonstrated by service to the community as part of and in the name of the group. It may be that for another group, commitment is demonstrated by service to the group in general and perhaps to collegiate chapters in particular. With yet another group, commitment may be demonstrated by living out the group's ideals and, by one's association, bringing honor to the group. Still another group might measure commitment by financial support, or by some combination of these criteria.

Who is more committed? Who knows, because apples are being compared to oranges and pears and peaches and . . . .

[33girl]

MysticCat's absolutely right.

There's an alum from my chapter who's given thousands of $$$ to the national organization but she has never come to any of the alum events the collegiate chapter has, or any alum chapter events. On the other hand, there are collegians and recent grads who work their asses off making websites and participating in every event but don't have $$$ to give.

Is the woman who donates money more important than the woman who donates time, or vice versa? No, we need both. Sometimes you get people who give both, but for a lot of people that's not possible. I think one of the barriers to alum involvement is when we put too strict parameters on what "active" means.

Edited to add, Blackwatch, thank you for bringing up the topic of power integration vs. space integration. I think there are too many white people out there who believe that blacks fought for integration because they wanted to hang out with white people and get invited to their barbecues. It had to do with the facilities and the opportunities, not the people. That being said, everyone is an individual first. The GLO you choose isn't something you have to explain to ANYONE, anymore than you have to explain why you are wearing red underwear or had oatmeal for breakfast.

[Sistermadly]

Thank you for cutting through the fog, MysticCat.

[12dn94dst]

Originally posted by MysticCat81
No, it's not really the only way to dispel the myth. Another way is to reiterate what you've already said -- people are comparing apples and oranges. Apples and oranges are being mixed again here. Sistermadly referred to being "committed" to organizations, and you refer to alumni "activity." That is a way to evaluate alumni commitment, but not the only way.

point taken

[VirtuousErudite]

I found this interesting. From the mtv webpage and the interview with Stephen, (the black Fraternity Life pledge):Bonus Question:


Q: What's your pledge name and why?

A: Token--because I am the token black guy in the fraternity

What the heck is that about????