Abortion and the stance you take?

[curiouss]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva
curiouss, that's not as off as it sounds. abortion kills the lives of the innocent, whereas the death penalty is punishment for those who have committed a really serious crime. but i don't have any answer for the other.

In that case, the phrase "pro-life" needs to be changed. Killing is killing, innocent or guilty.

the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human.
**i don't support fur companies, just so ya know, but i will grub up on some meat**

Monica

Can I get an AMEN in here?

[damasa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva


the weird thing that i often see is that a lot of people who are pro-choice and fight so strongly for it, will fight twice as hard for animal rights (like they're against ppl wearing real fur and/or are vegetarians b/c they don't want to eat something that once was a breathing animal). i've never had that explained to me how some will look out more for the life of an animal than they will for a human.

Monica

Whoa, where are you getting these statistics from? I'd like to read about this. Or, is this a matter of opinion based off the ideals and opinions of a girl you knew or know? Because one to me doesn't equal a lot. It's just weird because I don't think I know of a single person who is pro-choice that protests testing with animals, or anything related to animal rights'.

d

[valkyrie]

Okay, I guess I should speak up here.

I am completely, 100% pro choice, in all circumstances. I am also againt the death penalty and am a strict vegetarian and an advocate (although quietly) of animal rights. Whether my views make logical sense or not doesn't bother me, because I feel very strongly in my heart that I am right.

To me, it really comes down to the fact that a fetus or "unborn child" CANNOT LIVE ON ITS OWN. It is entirely dependent upon its mother, and I do not think that ANYONE has the right to tell a woman that she must (to use DukeBlue's wording again) DONATE HER BODY for nine months to carry something she doesn't want.

I'm not saying that a convicted murderer (who, remember, may well be innocent, but I won't get into a whole discussion of how racist and unfair the death penalty is) or an animal is more important than a child, but they are not dependent upon someone else for the very basics of existence, like breathing. I think that abortion is more of a woman issue than a child issue, and that the woman is the one who should determine what to do. To me, it comes down to the fact that I think the government should not interfere with something that only affects YOU or WHAT IS PART OF YOUR OWN BODY and not a creature living outside of it.

That's just my $.02, since y'all didn't seem to think there were any pro choice animal rights types out there.

[aggieAXO]

I am pro choice, pro death penalty and pro animal rts. Comparng a fur farm / slaughter house and abortion are 2 different things. Animals in fur farms are kept in small cages and then killed either through eltrocution or some other mean-not a pretty sight. I won't go into the nasty detail of how your steak got on your plate tonight. I do not preach to my friends that meat is bad-if they want to eat meat that is their rt. I don't dictate to them what they can or cannot put on their plate to eat.

Personally being a veterinarian I have soooooooo much more respect for animals than humans b/c I see the way every freakin day that I work how disgusting humans can be-not only to animals but also to their kids or others. If you are pro-life all power to you BUT DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY. BTW I eat eggs b/c I don't believe they are a "LIFE"-I have no problems eating eggs (free range of course). \

I will never change my mind on this subject-you can tell me all you want about the good orphanges or the adoption scenarios etc... I respect all of your opinions and am happy that we have the freedom to express these opinions but please don't let other people (ie the govt) tell me what I can and cannot do to my own body-this not only includes abortion but also assisted suicide.

[AlphaGamDiva]

Comparng a fur farm / slaughter house and abortion are 2 different things. Animals in fur farms are kept in small cages and then killed either through eltrocution or some other mean-not a pretty sight. I won't go into the nasty detail of how your steak got on your plate tonight.

yeah, and i don't think the process of sucking that baby out was really all that pretty, either.

If you are pro-life all power to you BUT DO NOT TELL ME WHAT TO DO WITH MY BODY.

...but it isn't just YOUR body. as a person who had to study biology a lot, i would think you would know when someone becomes pregnant, that means they are going to have a baby...which has a body all its own. it is definitely dependant on the mother for nutrients and to help it develop, but that doesn't mean it does not have it's own physical body. so, it ISN'T just yours to control.

and, i have yet to provide any statistics, d, (this has been addressed b/4)...all of what i say is what i believe to be true based on how i value life. when i have a statistic or a number or a website you can verify things, then i promise i will fill you all in. until then, i will simply voice my opinion, and you are free to agree or disagree.

[curiouss]

Originally posted by aggieAXO

Personally being a veterinarian I have soooooooo much more respect for animals than humans b/c I see the way every freakin day that I work how disgusting humans can be-not only to animals but also to their kids or others.

That attitude kind of disturbs me. It reminds me of when that guy threw a puppy of the bridge,
he got more years for that, while some people got less years or none FOR KILLING HUMAN BEINGS. A more specific example, in the same area, a guy got at least ten years for beating his dog to death, another guy got NO years for killing a cousin of mine.

[aggieAXO]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva


yeah, and i don't think the process of sucking that baby out was really all that pretty, either.



...but it isn't just YOUR body. as a person who had to study biology a lot, i would think you would know when someone becomes pregnant, that means they are going to have a baby...which has a body all its own. it is definitely dependant on the mother for nutrients and to help it develop, but that doesn't mean it does not have it's own physical body. so, it ISN'T just yours to control.

It is my control. The fetus needs me to live. To say it has a body all its own is an oxymoron.

To curiouss I am sorry about your cousin and I agree that humans should be punished for both crimes to animals and humans.

[AlphaGamDiva]

what i said was it has a physical body all its own (regardless of how dependent it is upon the mother, it is still another being)...you are controlling another life when you end it abruptly.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by curiouss
That attitude kind of disturbs me. It reminds me of when that guy threw a puppy of the bridge,
he got more years for that, while some people got less years or none FOR KILLING HUMAN BEINGS. A more specific example, in the same area, a guy got at least ten years for beating his dog to death, another guy got NO years for killing a cousin of mine.

Eek, I'm up too late.

Curiouss, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that you should be mad if someone goes to jail for killing an animal. I think that you should be mad that people kill other people and don't go to jail. I'd also like to know where a guy got ten years for beating a dog to death, because in my studies of state animal cruelty laws, I have not heard of such a thing. And I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

AggieAXO, although I disagree with you on the death penalty, as usual you are my hero!

[curiouss]

Originally posted by valkyrie


Eek, I'm up too late.

Curiouss, I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that you should be mad if someone goes to jail for killing an animal. I think that you should be mad that people kill other people and don't go to jail. I'd also like to know where a guy got ten years for beating a dog to death, because in my studies of state animal cruelty laws, I have not heard of such a thing. And I'm sorry to hear about your cousin.

I not mad because people go to jail for killing animals. I am mad because some of those people get more years for killing animals than for killing humans.

That incident occurred in the outskirts of St. Louis. This man's dog bit his daughter, then he got some type of hammer and beat him to death with it. He may have not got exactly ten years. But, he got more years than the guy who killed my cousin, who got none.

ok, im sorry, i tried to stay away (really I did) but I cant....

Ok id just like to say that NO pro-lifer here is trying to say what you can do with your body. Like everyone else we're just stating OUR opinion.

To me, it really comes down to the fact that a fetus or "unborn child" CANNOT LIVE ON ITS OWN.

Ok, and do you feel the same about a person on a respirator? They're dependent on something and cant live on their own.

OK, THIS IS JUST FROM MY OBSERVATION SO DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS NEXT THING.....ok everyone keeps saying how pro-lifers attack and get hostile, well no offense and im not saying all (and i still love how mature we're all being even though its gotten a lil outta hand at times) but many pro-choicers are like ripping down pro-lifers and getting hostile over are views, way more then pro-lifers on pro-choicers. We have as much right to believe in ours as you do yours and as long as we're not forcing stuff on you, stay CALM. Opinions, thats all this is. (and this is for no one in particular and kind of goes for both sides of the issue).

ok will try to stay away again. Happy Holidays to all

[AlphaGamDiva]

Ok, and do you feel the same about a person on a respirator? They're dependent on something and cant live--UMGirl

ah, thank you! an example i was searching for and couldn't quite put into words very well! sometimes i feel all alone in here, so i appreciate the back-up...come back more often!!!

monica

[valkyrie]

Yes, but someone who is on a respirator is not dependent upon the BODY of another to survive. He or she depends on machinery, not a person. No person is being forced to donate her body to keep the person alive. I think it is entirely different. When someone is on a respirator, nobody else's body is being sacrificed against her will.

As a side note, I also think that someone who needs a respirator should be able to decide whether to go on one or not, and should be able to tell another person what her wishes are should she ever be in that situation. I don't think anyone should ever be hooked up to a respirator if it is against her wishes. As soon as the government starts interfering with an individual's choice in dealing with her own body and medical treatment in any form, I think we are all in big trouble.

[AlphaGamDiva]

"I also think that someone who needs a respirator should be able to decide whether to go on one or not, and should be able to tell another person what her wishes are should she ever be in that situation. I don't think anyone should ever be hooked up to a respirator if it is against her wishes. As soon as the government starts interfering with an individual's choice in dealing with her own body and medical treatment in any form, I think we are all in big trouble."--valkyrie

ppl do have that option, but not everyone has a living will dictating what they want done in a case where they may need a respirator...

when a baby is born, it still needs the care of others. it has to be fed and changed...which is taking from the mother, just the pocketbook, not the body anymore. so...when it's inside the womb it's one thing, but when it's outside, it's another...?

[damasa]

Originally posted by AlphaGamDiva






and, i have yet to provide any statistics, d, (this has been addressed b/4)...all of what i say is what i believe to be true based on how i value life. when i have a statistic or a number or a website you can verify things, then i promise i will fill you all in. until then, i will simply voice my opinion, and you are free to agree or disagree.

First, I didn't see the address about statistics before, I guess it's "my bad" roofles.
Second, I respect what everyone says and believes. BUT, when someone tries or implies to pass opinion off as fact, I like to see stats, figures, something to help me better see the big picture, maybe to open up my mind so to speak.



d