Can you be Christian and Greek?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by agzg

Also, and I'm just going to edit because I'm the last post in the thread currently, thank you for the paragraph breaks, Andre Turner!

I'll echo that since I commented on it too.

Originally Posted by Iota Man

This is foul as hell.

Seriously, it could not have been said any better than that.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Praise Jewish Jesus, you learned how to quote.

LOL. Let the people say "Hallelujah! Amen!" (to the quoted and just about everything else you've said).

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I have to leave this thread, click on another thread, and eventually log off to do life things. In the meantime....

Great, me too. I'll have to pick this up later. I have some data I need to analyze so that my coworker can go home. Because I analyze data for a living. Very prestigious, maybe you didn't know, but us data people are very hard workers and make a lot of money.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Andre Turner

Your arrogance, and ignorance explains why you would just tell somebody to "get over" 4 centuries of bondage, control, abuse, murder, rape, and oppression from your people. What your people have done, still very much so effects black people right now. So it relevant today.

Only 4 centuries? Pick up a history book and look up European feudalism. Somehow those former medieval serfs (slaves) are now perfectly upwardly mobile and arguably more free than we are in the U.S. in many respects. The ancient world existed for far more than 400 years and slavery right along with it. Somehow, the ancestors of slaves weren't whining in the forums about some sort of metaphorical servitude still being imposed on them.

Sure, black folks in the U.S. have some serious socioeconomic challenges and yes, discrimination happens. But is it slavery? Hell no. Do you have less freedom than I do? I don't see it. Cite facts, not silly metaphors.

What biological, "economical" [sic], psychological, sociological, religious slavery is being imposed on you right now? Did "the whites" tell you how you have to think, pray, spend your money, etc. as some monolithic and malevolent entity? Or do you just not like the culture you were born into?

It is estimated that at the beginning of the 19th century, 75% of the world's population existed under some form of bondage. Slavery wasn't abolished in Europe until the mid 1800s. Somehow their former slaves' progeny have actually gotten over it.

Slavery was a horrible thing and a blight on this nation's history, but aside from some metaphors, what freedoms are you lacking today?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by agzg

Telling someone to get over things like this has certainly always ended well in the past.

I may be taking this wrong, but it seems as if he's making a lot of categorical racial statements regarding the slave master... let's just call us "the whites" which are just absurd. Devil's food cake:black::Angel's food cake: white and there's a racial causal link in the naming? Preposterous.

It's not his race in the Bible - his race is not relevant (in the Bible). The depictions/lens through which we think of Jesus now and the lens of who is and has been telling/teaching/depicting him historically to other groups (does he look like you? do you look the same as your audience? does he look like your audience?) is where the discussion is coming from - at least that's what I get from Andre's posts. And I think it does make a difference

Just following crass marketing concepts, race is certainly an aspect of marketing. Religion is marketed towards its consumers, so certainly it would be more appealing if we presented a black Jesus to a black audience and a viking looking Jesus to a Norse audience and so on. As to some vast cultural conspiracy of the whites to trample on the religious psyche of black folks? That may have been true in the past, which is why I say this is relevant in a historical context, but still being angry about it today? I would hope he'd have better things to do.

Now, whether or not that means you can or can't be Greek... I don't know any GLOs to be outside of Judeo-Christian values but then I only know the ritual for one.

The question is fundamentally flawed. There is no such thing as some sort of monolithic set of Judeo-Christian values. Some folks are going to have what they consider to be their values and others will have other types of values. Who is to say agzg's concept of Christianity forbids her from joining a GLO?

Define what Judeo-Christian values are in the first place. Only then can a serious discussion ensue as to whether you can join a secret society.

--and if that language is so important, you best not eat shellfish lest we stone you.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Only 4 centuries? Pick up a history book and look up European feudalism. Somehow those former medieval serfs (slaves) are now perfectly upwardly mobile and arguably more free than we are in the U.S. in many respects. The ancient world existed for far more than 400 years and slavery right along with it. Somehow, the ancestors of slaves weren't whining in the forums about some sort of metaphorical servitude still being imposed on them.

Sure, black folks in the U.S. have some serious socioeconomic challenges and yes, discrimination happens. But is it slavery? Hell no. Do you have less freedom than I do? I don't see it. Cite facts, not silly metaphors.

What biological, "economical" [sic], psychological, sociological, religious slavery is being imposed on you right now? Did "the whites" tell you how you have to think, pray, spend your money, etc. as some monolithic and malevolent entity? Or do you just not like the culture you were born into?

It is estimated that at the beginning of the 19th century, 75% of the world's population existed under some form of bondage. Slavery wasn't abolished in Europe until the mid 1800s. Somehow their former slaves' progeny have actually gotten over it.

Slavery was a horrible thing and a blight on this nation's history, but aside from some metaphors, what freedoms are you lacking today?

Shut the hell up.

That is the nicest phrasing that I could think of.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I may be taking this wrong, but it seems as if he's making a lot of categorical racial statements regarding the slave master... let's just call us "the whites" which are just absurd. Devil's food cake:black::Angel's food cake: white and there's a racial causal link in the naming? Preposterous.

The constructs of dark=bad, light=good, and their racial implications cannot be lost on you.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Just following crass marketing concepts, race is certainly an aspect of marketing. Religion is marketed towards its consumers, so certainly it would be more appealing if we presented a black Jesus to a black audience and a viking looking Jesus to a Norse audience and so on. As to some vast cultural conspiracy of the whites to trample on the religious psyche of black folks? That may have been true in the past, which is why I say this is relevant in a historical context, but still being angry about it today? I would hope he'd have better things to do.

I don't know that white men presented Jesus as black to black people - do you? I've already talked about "The Curse of Ham," but given its prevalence in the justification for American slavery, I'm willing to hazard a guess that in most cases, he was not.

You'd be amazed at the things people have a hard time getting over, considering the economic and social inequality we're still trying (or not trying, as may be the case) to address today.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The question is fundamentally flawed. There is no such thing as some sort of monolithic set of Judeo-Christian values. Some folks are going to have what they consider to be their values and others will have other types of values. Who is to say agzg's concept of Christianity forbids her from joining a GLO?

Define what Judeo-Christian values are in the first place. Only then can a serious discussion ensue as to whether you can join a secret society.

--and if that language is so important, you best not eat shellfish lest we stone you.

I'm using "Judeo-Christian values" in the socially accepted construct here (one God, be a good person, etc.). I don't think that, for example, Evangelical Christians or Ultra-Orthodox Jews identify with the "Judeo-Christian values" construct as it's accepted by society at large.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by agzg

The constructs of dark=bad, light=good, and their racial implications cannot be lost on you.

Correlation =/= causation. White/light= good whereas dark/black = bad is a concept which goes back to ancient times in western culture. One would be hard pressed to find a smoking gun of a racial link.

How about a business being 'in the black'? Is that a slight against Native Americans since the opposite of being black is being in the red? Where does this silliness end?

I don't know that white men presented Jesus as black to black people - do you? I've already talked about "The Curse of Ham," but given its prevalence in the justification for American slavery, I'm willing to hazard a guess that in most cases, he was not.

No of course they didn't back then. As I said, religion was used as a tool of oppression. Jesus would have to be the color of the master, etc. I get all that. It was a long time ago though. At some point, it becomes less relevant as to now.

You'd be amazed at the things people have a hard time getting over, considering the economic and social inequality we're still trying (or not trying, as may be the case) to address today.

Continuing to bitch about it without suggesting anything reasonable is, as you put it, "not trying."

I'm using "Judeo-Christian values" in the socially accepted construct here (one God, be a good person, etc.). I don't think that, for example, Evangelical Christians or Ultra-Orthodox Jews identify with the "Judeo-Christian values" construct as it's accepted by society at large.

I think they're very different. Utra-Orthodox Jews and evangelical Christians, you'll have to admit are pretty far apart on a lot of things. Sure, they agree that for the most part killing, stealing and lying is bad, but I doubt we'll find much mainstream consensus that secret societies are either good or bad. Most folks probably don't think about it. I have a hard time thinking there's an all-powerful/all-knowing God who gives a damn whether I'm a Sigma Nu or not, although I think He'd approve.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Correlation =/= causation. White/light= good whereas dark/black = bad is a concept which goes back to ancient times in western culture. One would be hard pressed to find a smoking gun of a racial link.

How about a business being 'in the black'? Is that a slight against Native Americans since the opposite of being black is being in the red? Where does this silliness end?



No of course they didn't back then. As I said, religion was used as a tool of oppression. Jesus would have to be the color of the master, etc. I get all that. It was a long time ago though. At some point, it becomes less relevant as to now.



Continuing to bitch about it without suggesting anything reasonable is, as you put it, "not trying."

Is Kevin serious?

[agzg]

I really do have to step away now, everyone. I have to get on the train. Because people who ride the train are important.

Trains = prestige.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by agzg

I really do have to step away now, everyone. I have to get on the train. Because people who ride the train are important.

Trains = prestige.

Totally jealous. My city doesn't even have a train.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Totally jealous. My city doesn't even have a train.

I clearly live in a more prestigious city than you, then. Be ashamed of your chosen living situation.

[DrPhil]

SydneyK and agzg, please get over it. People around the world have gotten over it for thousands of years (or at least I cannot see them thinking about it and talking about it). Why can't you get over it?

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

SydneyK and agzg, please get over it. People around the world have gotten over it for thousands of years (or at least I cannot see them thinking about it and talking about it). Why can't you get over it?

Be careful, you're getting shrill, and you have a history.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

SydneyK and agzg, please get over it. People around the world have gotten over it for thousands of years (or at least I cannot see them thinking about it and talking about it). Why can't you get over it?

Shut up, bitch! I don't have to get over anything.
That's it. I've had enough. I'm leaving.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by agzg

Be careful, you're getting shrill, and you have a history.

Originally Posted by SydneyK

Shut up, bitch! I don't have to get over anything.
That's it. I've had enough. I'm leaving.

Get over deeeez nuhhtsss!!!!

Awesome thread.