The Confederate Flag

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

... the average person remains more likely to express discontent over something with those within their racial and ethnic group.

I agree.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

...Therefore, many racial and ethnic minorities who have some sense of the larger implications of many things will nod their heads, take mental notes, and save the in depth discussion for nonwhites.

I think the same is probably true of white folks. Which, if true across the ethnic/racial board, makes me wonder whether there is any hope for true nondiscrimination**. If racial and ethnic minorities are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, and white people are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, the likelihood of true desegregation** seems extremely low (if attainable at all). If each group is doing this, what goal can we accomplish (and, for that matter, what goal are we trying to accomplish)?

**I wish I could find better terms here. I'm talking about real feelings of inclusion/peace/understanding, and not PC/legal constructs.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I agree.

I think the same is probably true of white folks. Which, if true across the ethnic/racial board, makes me wonder whether there is any hope for true nondiscrimination**. If racial and ethnic minorities are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, and white people are taking the difficult discussions to those within their group, the likelihood of true desegregation** seems extremely low (if attainable at all). If each group is doing this, what goal can we accomplish (and, for that matter, what goal are we trying to accomplish)?

**I wish I could find better terms here. I'm talking about real feelings of inclusion/peace/understanding, and not PC/legal constructs.

I think the discussions are being had intraracially but not with the goal in mind of fixing the problem beyond solutions that benefit your own group. I think most times it's just a "see, look at what they did now" kind of thing.

Add in the the factor of older generations simply being tired of dealing with the "same ole, same ole" and politicians who know how to manipulate the "nuance of race" to achieve political ends, and it's no wonder that the "problem of the 20th century" is also the problem of the 21st century.

Successive generations start off idealistic, but then life factors (work, getting ahead), fueled, as I said, often by a political structure with less than ideal goals, tend to put most people in a self-preservation mode that relegates loftier goals to second tier status.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I think the same is probably true of white folks.

Yes, the white diaspora is among the segregated races and ethnicities of people across the globe whose majority of intimate time is spent intraracially.

And just so people don't pretend this is a level playing field:

White privilege is such that whites (as an aggregate) do not have that constant desire or need to educate because whites are the population and power majority. In the relative few instances where whites (usually temporarily) are the minority and someone expresses intolerance towards whites, sure it can be mean and hurt feelings, but that is buffered when white people realize white privilege and go back to majority white environments. That is one reason why the Confederate Flag is still a topic of discussion whereas whites (as an aggregate) are not complaining about nonwhites intruding upon their peace and tranquility (aside from the occasional "darn immigrants" rants).

Originally Posted by TonyB06

I think the discussions are being had intraracially but not with the goal in mind of fixing the problem beyond solutions that benefit your own group. I think most times it's just a "see, look at what they did now" kind of thing.

Successive generations start off idealistic, but then life factors (work, getting ahead), fueled, as I said, often by a political structure with less than ideal goals, tend to put most people in a self-preservation mode that relegates loftier goals to second tier status.

Exactly.

Besides, I have never been consumed with people "liking" or "understanding." That isn't the real powerful stuff because racism and discrimination are still going on while people are sitting in diversity and sensitivity training workships. I am concerned with making sure there are policies and laws that prohibit social exclusion on the basis of race and ethnicity, gender, sexual orientiation, and etc. Some whites (since whites are the majority in terms of power and population) will always be intolerant or dislike racial and ethnic minorities. That is absolutely fine with me, just leave our access to resources the hell alone and stop perpetuating an environment of fear and social isolation.

Originally Posted by Ch2tf

I'm so happy I wasn't eating my breakfast in front of the computer when I read these because it would be all over the screen and keyboard.



I might not be rich, but I'd definitely have a WHOLE lot more money than I do now.

ETA: And I'd be able to afford to pay someone to train K_S how to take proper minutes.

LOL.

Oh yes, he's a horrible secretary. "Those people."

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by thetaj

I agree with not waving it in the North lol. It means two completely different things. I feel like in the South the flag does not at all represent the Civil War in any way, especially for my generation.

As far as how minorities view it: The population in the South has a very strong representation of minorities. I haven't spoken to anyone about this specifically, but I feel like if they took offense to it, something would at least be said about that. And I have never in my life heard of there being an issue with the flag being flown locally. Kids at my high school would fly them behind their pick-up trucks and the black students didn't seem to mind, they were friends. I've seen several giant ones flying along major interstates! I'm actually surprised at how negatively it's viewed in the North, and I feel like that sheds a lot of light on the bass-akwards Southern stereotype.

It just means we're proud to be from the South. I know I am! But I don't fly a flag about it because it's kind of an eye-roller. Not because I think my neighbors would think I'm a racist.

It's not that way across the entire South. My first negative encounter with the confederate flag was in high school centered around a group of senior white guys wearing home made t-shirts with the flag and the phrase "It's a white thing you wouldn't understand" and ugly KKK inspired nicknames like Grand Dragon airbrushed on the back to counter the popular "It's a black thing you wouldn't understand" t-shirts of the early 90's. This was at a very integrated, high achiever HS five minutes from Southern University. The meaning of that flag hasn't changed just because a new generation of children have decided to "take back" a symbol. It is not accepted or embraced by all white Southerners, and plenty of black southerners as well as white southerners are offended by it.

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It's not that way across the entire South. My first negative encounter with the confederate flag was in high school centered around a group of senior white guys wearing home made t-shirts with the flag and the phrase "It's a white thing you wouldn't understand" and ugly KKK inspired nicknames like Grand Dragon airbrushed on the back to counter the popular "It's a black thing you wouldn't understand" t-shirts of the early 90's. This was at a very integrated, high achiever HS five minutes from Southern University. The meaning of that flag hasn't changed just because a new generation of children have decided to "take back" a symbol. It is not accepted or embraced by all white Southerners, and plenty of black southerners as well as white southerners are offended by it.

I cosign 100%. I'd like to say to my fellow white folks: don't kid yourself by assuming that your black friends are cool with it just because it's always been around. Slavery at one point in our history had always been around too; I imagine one would have been hardpressed to find a slave who was OK with slavery just because it had always been that way.

[TonyB06]

Originally Posted by amIblue?

I cosign 100%. I'd like to say to my fellow white folks: don't kid yourself by assuming that your black friends are cool with it just because it's always been around. Slavery at one point in our history had always been around too; I imagine one would have been hardpressed to find a slave who was OK with slavery just because it had always been that way.

Wow. You can come to next month's "Black meeting" and sit right in the front as my guest.

[TonyB06]

/slight twist.

I "get" the argument that the flag can mean different things to those flying it, heritage, cultural pride, etc..

Does that same reasoning attach if you see someone burning and American flag? Can they be burning it for reasons other than hatred of America? Is there any "acceptable reason" you can grasp, even if you don't agree, in your mind that would make you at least tolerant?

I suppose "burning" it rather than flying it would make some consider it a more overt political statement, but isn't flying a flag a political statement, of some sort, in the first place?


/end of twist

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by TonyB06

Wow. You can come to next month's "Black meeting" and sit right in the front as my guest.

It would be an honor. Thanks!

[Low C Sharp]

There were plenty of northerners who wanted to abolish slavery for non-moral reasons, just as there were plenty of southerners who wanted to abolish slavery for moral reasons.

The whole Civil War thing is a red herring. The problem with the battle flag has little to do with the Confederacy. The battle flag was adopted as a symbol of racial intimidation by the Klan and its sympathizers in the twentieth century. It was successfully used to place millions of Americans in a state of terror in their own homes. You can't erase that history from that flag. It's ruined. It's poisoned. Pick a different Confederate symbol to fly -- there are lots to choose from that never flew at lynchings and segregationist rallies. If you don't, I can only assume that, at best, you don't mind being associated with a reminder of white-supremacist violence.

I can't imagine what flag in Chicago (?) has offensive connotations. I've seen Puerto Rican, Mexican, and Irish flags, but that's about it.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

The battle flag was adopted as a symbol of racial intimidation by the Klan and its sympathizers in the twentieth century. It was successfully used to place millions of Americans in a state of terror in their own homes.

This may be true. The Klan also used crosses to do the same thing, yet people don't cry, 'Racist!' when they see a southerner displaying one. Yes, I know there are problems with the analogy, but it serves a purpose nonetheless. That purpose being different emblems have different meanings to different people. The emblems themselves don't have intrinsic meaning - meaning is assigned by individuals. And different individuals assign different meanings to the same emblem.

I'm not trying to say that every CF-waver is a non-racist - not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm just saying that there are non-racists who display the Confederate Flag. I think the woman in the original story is insensitive and displayed poor judgment, but that's not the case for all those who wave the flag.

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

I'm just saying that there are non-racists who display the Confederate Flag.

Non-racists who display the confederate flag need to try harder.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by SydneyK

This may be true. The Klan also used crosses to do the same thing, yet people don't cry, 'Racist!' when they see a southerner displaying one. Yes, I know there are problems with the analogy, but it serves a purpose nonetheless. That purpose being different emblems have different meanings to different people. The emblems themselves don't have intrinsic meaning - meaning is assigned by individuals. And different individuals assign different meanings to the same emblem.

Actually, I think this is a terrible analogy.

The cross is (generally) a positive symbol that has been used for thousands and thousands of years across different religions. The Klan using this symbol didn't taint it forever, as most people had thoughts and beliefs about what it meant that were so entrenched in its history that the Klan couldn't change that. It was known that this symbol represented something other than white power, and did so long before the creation of the KKK.

Now, in terms of cross-BURNING... this was practiced before the creation of the KKK, but if I was to burn a cross today, most likely no one is going to think of its Scottish origins and let me off with a warning. Here in the US, cross-burning is associated with the Klan, and I doubt that association will ever be changed.

In other words, there's a difference between a flag/symbol that was created for a positive reason and used later for a negative one (by a small group of people), and a flag/symbol that was initially used to represent something negative and is then attempted to express something positive.

The Confederate flag being flown proudly in the US isn't comparable to the Klan using the cross, but it IS comparable to the Klan burning the cross, in that both symbols were (in this country) initially associated with despicable thoughts and actions. To attempt to reverse that completely would most likely be impossible.

Originally Posted by KDCat

I think it totally depends on who is flying it. I'm sure some people fly it out of general "Southern pride" and aren't racists or rebels. At the same time, regardless of who flys it, I think the use of that flag is a mistake. It's a big middle finger to the whole world because it's a flag that was used to represent 1) people who engaged in treason/revolution against the United States and 2) by the Klan and 3) segregationists. I think if you fly it, you're telling the whole world that you are perfectly happy to be identified with those groups.

If someone flies a red flag with a yellow hammer and crescent on it, I tend to believe that they have some sympathy for communists.

A flag is a piece of communication. If it's not communicating the message that you want it to, the problem isn't the fact that audience misunderstood, it's that you have chosen the wrong symbol to communicate.

This!!!

I don't have a problem if you want to display it in your house. Hell, you could have a Klan meeting at your house if you wanted, just as long as you aren't plotting to commit an act of violence. But when you leave your house with a t-shirt or a bumper sticker displaying that flag, you shouldn't be surprised if you're met with people who think you're racist. But hey, that's your right.

However, in my opinion, a symbol that makes, most likely, at least 50% of the country uncomfortable at the least and pissed off/offended at the most, shouldn't be flown at a government building. The fact that states fight to keep that flag flying on the front lawns of their capital buildings is baffling to me.

Originally Posted by BluPhire

Yep, Northern to parts of Central Florida is very South.

This sentence made me laugh.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

Actually, I think this is a terrible analogy.

I see where both of you are coming from.

However, unlike SydneyK, I would not use the KKK as an illustration of the negatives associated with the "cross." Christianity, and Christian symbols such as the cross, has represented the "religious arm of power," European-white diasporic dominance, colonialism, missionaries, slavery, the push to civilize the unGodly savages, racism, sexism, homosexism, rape, and overall social exclusion. Religion, specifically Christianity in this instance, has been used to perpetuate social inequalities around the world and keep oppressed populations compliant. Since we're thinking about the history behind symbols, and telling people that they cannot rightfully respect symbols that have an oppressive history and offend masses of people, there are people around the world who cringe when they see Christian symbols including the cross. For instance, the Black Church and the role of Christianity in Black oppression and assimilation has always been criticized by people of African Diaspora around the world who believe that Christianity was forced on the African Diaspora; and a "white Jesus and His cross" should not be worshipped.

Is there a substantive difference when we look at national/international history regarding this or only a difference in what people personally believe in (since Christianity is the world's largest religion)? If it is the latter then that defense of personal beliefs and the positive despite the negative are why people justify respecting and displaying the Confederate Flag.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

However, unlike SydneyK, I would not use the KKK as an illustration of the negatives associated with the "cross." Christianity, and Christian symbols such as the cross, has represented the "religious arm of power," European-white diasporic dominance, colonialism, missionaries, slavery, the push to civilize the unGodly savages, racism, sexism, homosexism, rape, and overall social exclusion. Religion, specifically Christianity in this instance, has been used to perpetuate social inequalities around the world and keep oppressed populations compliant. Since we're thinking about the history behind symbols, and telling people that they cannot rightfully respect symbols that have an oppressive history and offend masses of people, there are people around the world who cringe when they see Christian symbols including the cross. For instance, the Black Church and the role of Christianity in Black oppression and assimilation has always been criticized by people of African Diaspora around the world who believe that Christianity was forced on the African Diaspora; and a "white Jesus and His cross" should not be worshipped.

Is there a substantive difference when we look at national/international history regarding this or only a difference in what people personally believe in (since Christianity is the world's largest religion)? If it is the latter then that defense of personal beliefs and the positive despite the negative are why people justify respecting and displaying the Confederate Flag.

Ideally, common areas would be free from any type of potentially offensive displays, including Confederate Flags and crosses.

Speaking to your question, though, I'm looking at two aspects.

First, what is the base meaning of the symbol? For the Confederate Flag, it is secessionism, treason, slavery, etc. For Christian/other religious symbols, the base meanings are intended to be morally positive or perhaps neutral.

Building on the base meaning, it is not a far jump for the Confederate Flag to have evolved into a symbol of hate. Could the Confederate Flag become a positive symbol? Perhaps, but it is not currently so.

On the other hand Christian symbols may take on a negative connotation in certain contexts, but there has always been a conflicting positive connotation in other contexts.

Second, going back to the question I asked, what is the real root of the reason people in the 21st century are displaying a Confederate Flag? I would ask the same question of people displaying Christian symbols. If a person is holding a cruel protest sign in one hand and gripping a cross in the other, the cross is takes on the symbolism given it by the individual. However, the same cross around the neck of a volunteer doctor carries a very different symbolism.

Reasonable, empathetic human beings will recognize the difference and use symbolism appropriately in various contexts.

[amIblue?]

Thanks for starting it, DrPhil!