kappa sigma at fgcu?

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel

I'm not interested in debating or discussing the whole situation, but as an aside, do you think what you've posted on GC is something Kappa Sigma and FGCU administration would look favorably upon? If I was associated with a group who had some crappy people who already made things difficult, and I was fighting a system I found unfair, I wouldn't want to draw attention to myself.

Plus I know big squirrels would come out of all kinds of trees.

[stufield]

I am writing this in response to posts earlier today by "rex in effect", who is a loyal Kappa Sig, and "LaneSig", who is an equally loyal Sigma Chi.

"rex in effect" states, in part, that Kappa Sigma is the 3rd largest fraternity in the nation, and that Kappa Sigma is way ahead of Sigma Chi nationally.

"LaneSig" attempts to distinguish the unrecognized Sigma Chi colony at George Mason University ["GMU"] from the unrecognized Kappa Sigma colony at Florida Gulf Coast University ["FGCU"]

As a Kappa Sigma alumnus of more years than I care to admit, one who has been involved in interfraternal affairs for the past three decades, and one who has a thoroughgoing knowledge of both Kappa Sigma's and Sigma Chi's expansion policies, and where both fraternities have chapters, active and dormant, as well as their general operations in all sorts of areas, I can advise "rex in effect" that although both he and I might not like it, Sigma Chi presently has more active chapters and colonies than Kappa Sigma does, and, frankly, that Sigma Chi has more of them at well-known, quality schools with sound academic reputations. Kappa Sigma is certainly NOT ahead of Sigma Chi in this regard. Kappa Sigma has been expanding vigorously in the past five or six years (as has Delta Chi, Sigma Pi, Pi Kappa Phi, Fiji, and a number of other fraternities), but a number of the chapters it has established in that time are at little-known and lightly-regarded schools. As a Kappa Sig, I don't like this. Nor do many other Kappa Sig alumni. We see it as the "Tekeification" of the Fraternity ... hopefully most of you who are reading this thread will understand that reference. But that is the expansionary road that the powers that be in the Fraternity have chosen to take. And one lane in that road has been to recognize colonies at a number of schools, not just FGCU, which did not at the time enjoy official recognition by the school's administration and/or IFC. In some cases, such recognition did come in due course; in other cases, such lack of formal recognition has continued well past those colonies having received their charters as active chapters. Common sense says that sooner or later such recognition will be forthcoming, if the unrecognized chapter can survive until then without it. But whether or not such chapters can succeed in the long run without such recognition remains to be seen. It is a work in progress at several schools.

I would also state, although again I do not like conceding it, that Sigma Chi actually is far ahead of Kappa Sigma in all sorts of areas nationally: Sigma Chi has a much more balanced distribution of its active chapters across the entire USA and Canada than Kappa Sigma; Sigma Chi has a much lower percentage of dormant/inactive chapters in relation to the total number of charters granted than Kappa Sigma does; Sigma Chi enjoys a significantly higher degree of alumni support, both numerically and financially than Kappa Sigma does; Kappa Sigma's quarterly magazine, The Caduceus, is a rag compared to its Sigma Chi counterpart, The Magazine of Sigma Chi.

Having said that, however, LaneSig's attempted distinction between Sigma Chi's unrecognized colony at GMU and Kappa Sig's at FGCU is an artificial one. While the distinction he makes is valid, the facts of the matter are that both fraternities were not invited by the respective schools to colonize there at that time, but both have colonized there anyway, and both colonies are recognized by their respective fraternities. Furthermore, both fraternities also have colonies at other schools at which those colonies are not officially recognized by those schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs, as do a number of other fraternities (and perhaps sororities as well). Those fraternities all regard such unwillingness to extend recognition as an interference with their groups' rights of free association.

It is well and admirable for members of all fraternities and sororities to be proud of and loyal to their respective organizations. But they should be sure to actually know what they are talking about when they make public statements stating that their fraternity "is better than", "is ahead of", "has more chapters than", "is more progressive or more conservative than", etc. some other fraternity. They will be mistaken more often than not; the more sweeping the generalization, the less likely it is to be correct. Most active chapter members, i.e. most undergraduates, have very little knowledge of their own fraternity at the (inter)national level, let alone about other fraternities (what little they think they know is usually the self-congratulatory, self-promotional, but often not entirely factually correct PR pap that their fraternity feeds them, which virtually all fraternities do); in fact, most undergraduate members have very little knowledge of their own and other fraternities past their own campuses; in fact, it constantly amazes me just how little members of any one fraternity on any given campus know about the other fraternities on their own campuses, let alone about their own fraternity and other fraternities on a larger scale.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by stufield

,Having said that, however, LaneSig's attempted distinction between Sigma Chi's unrecognized colony at GMU and Kappa Sig's at FGCU is an artificial one. While the distinction he makes is valid, the facts of the matter are that both fraternities were not invited by the respective schools to colonize there at that time, but both have colonized there anyway, and both colonies are recognized by their respective fraternities. Furthermore, both fraternities also have colonies at other schools at which those colonies are not officially recognized by those schools' respective administrations and/or IFCs, as do a number of other fraternities (and perhaps sororities as well). Those fraternities all regard such unwillingness to extend recognition as an interference with their groups' rights of free association.

Thank you for your thoughtful insight. Please know that I am in no way attempting to discredit Kappa Sigma as an organization. If it has appeared that way, I do apologize.

However, where the matter of our George Mason University chapter is concerned, I do know of where I speak. The Iota Xi chapter was colonized with the full approval of GMU. It is the result of later actions that led to the chapter being banned from GMU for 10 years, but still recognized by our HQ.

http://www.corsulian.com/wiki/index.php/%ce%a3%ce%a7

I knew of the GMU case, but found this article that will back up my statements. Admittingly, the article does not make the chapter look good, but it also shows that we are/were not in the same situation that Kappa Sigma currently finds themselves in with Florida Gulf Coast University.

[Gusteau]

Re: The Iota Xi Chapter of Sigma Chi

I am a member of the Greek Community at George Mason University. Sigma Chi was banned before I came to Mason, however, I have enough insight into the situation to tell you that it is not comparable with Kappa Sigma at FGCU.

Establishment is an important criteria in the distinction. Additionally, I trust that Sigma Chi investigated the situation fully, and determined the chapter's actions to be unworthy of the university punishment. None of our organizations want to keep bad chapters open, and if Sigma Chi had found the Iota Xi Chapter to be in the wrong I'm sure they would not have hesitated to shut them down. This is radically different from a University saying, "We don't want you to expand here."

[rex in effect]

Tekeification? TKE is a great fraternity. They are the largest fraternity nationally. They are also way younger than Kappa Sigma and Sigma Chi. They were founded in 1899. Sigma Chi seems to have a more quality ver quantity approach when it comes to their colonizations. I have nothing against that. That is what they choose to do and they are very large nationally. But, a high number of chapters is crucial in fraternal organization. For example, Delta Upsilon, 80 active chapters. Chi Phi, 53 active chapters. Alpha Gamma Rho, 72 active chapters. These smaller chapters would be quick to colonize and charter at any university so that they can grow.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by rex in effect

Tekeification? TKE is a great fraternity. They are the largest fraternity nationally. They are also way younger than Kappa Sigma and Sigma Chi. They were founded in 1899. Sigma Chi seems to have a more quality ver quantity approach when it comes to their colonizations. I have nothing against that. That is what they choose to do and they are very large nationally. But, a high number of chapters is crucial in fraternal organization. For example, Delta Upsilon, 80 active chapters. Chi Phi, 53 active chapters. Alpha Gamma Rho, 72 active chapters. These smaller chapters would be quick to colonize and charter at any university so that they can grow.

No.

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

To bring this discussion back on track (Kappa Sigma at FGCU)

I propose this question to all of you, especially those that are in opposition of open expansion now. If a group of young men, tuition paying students of the university can:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus. Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...).

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by rex in effect

But, a high number of chapters is crucial in fraternal organization.

Really? Then how would you explain Psi Upsilon, one of the oldest and most influential fraternities in the country, having a conservative expansion policy and only 46 chapters ever established?

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

No. The IFC had a very clear policy that you choose to ignore out of hand. It is all about being part of the Greek SYSTEM, not just a bunch of individual chapters. If you ignored the policy about something as clear cut as expansion, how could they expect you to follow any other policies they might make?

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

To me, this is the key issue. You admit yourself that your colony will be more successful after it gains university recognition. I want my organization to colonize where it will be most successful, and campus recognition is an important part of that. I want my organization's colonies to receive the most support they can, in addition to benefiting most individually from their fraternal experience. So generally, I do oppose expansion without university consent, it jeopardizes the strength of my fraternity and prohibits our members from receiving all of the benefits of being a fraternity at that university.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by rex in effect

But, a high number of chapters is crucial in fraternal organization.

Only if that fraternal organization (1) equates health with size and (2) can support/service all of its chapters as needed.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

To bring this discussion back on track (Kappa Sigma at FGCU)

I propose this question to all of you, especially those that are in opposition of open expansion now. If a group of young men, tuition paying students of the university can:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus. Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...).

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

This group of men don't want to follow the rules BEFORE being recognized, but they'll follow the rules if they get recognition?

Nope.

ETA: I think LaneSig said this -- if you're not part of NIC, why are you trying to use NIC's open expansion policy to support your arguments?

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

To bring this discussion back on track (Kappa Sigma at FGCU)

I propose this question to all of you, especially those that are in opposition of open expansion now. If a group of young men, tuition paying students of the university can:

Form a dues paying, nationally recognized interest group/colony of 1/3 the membership of the largest fraternity on campus. Also, have that group of men meet the checklist per requested by their national headquarters (GPA, community service hours per man, fundraising dollars per man, campus involvement, by-laws, code of conduct, etc...).

Should they not be voted upon favorably for recognition to IFC? Surely they would bring about beneficial competition... I assure you this is no easy task. Whomever group completes this task is more than capable of adding strength to the IFC and to Greek Life.

I know my own current colony and future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma will, when we do get recognized at FGCU, at least double in size in quality men and perfect our operations - thus increasing the efforts across the board for all chapters on campus. And trust me, the community will reap the benefits of such policy change.

Generally speaking, I agree with the idea of free association (open expansion) as set forth by the NIC. However, that applies only to NIC member organizations.

Regardless, there is no oversight or governance by the NIC over a campus IFC similar to what the NPC and the NPHC have with their campus councils. And most campus IFCs include non NIC members such as Kappa Sigma and Phi Delta Theta as well as other local, regional and inter/national fraternities as applicable. As such, the rules and guidelines set forth by the local campus IFC are the ones to be followed by those seeking to be a member of the IFC. In other words, to join a campus IFC, a fraternity (NIC or not) needs to "play by their rules".

In the meantime, I wish the future Rho Zeta Chapter of Kappa Sigma all the best. Hopefully the issues about recognition will be resolved soon to the satisfaction of both Kappa Sigma and FGCU.

[K∑_PZ_AEKΔB]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

This group of men don't want to follow the rules BEFORE being recognized, but they'll follow the rules if they get recognition?

Nope.

ETA: I think LaneSig said this -- if you're not part of NIC, why are you trying to use NIC's open expansion policy to support your arguments?

Like I stated beforehand, policies and rules constantly change. It is only a matter of time and an agent to bring about the change. If humanity blindly and without question followed policies and rules set forth we would not be as advanced as we are today. Same concept applies here I believe...

"He who rejects change is the engineer of decay, for evolution not only is advantageous for its subjects but is essential for their survival."

So while those in opposition of change hold tight to the current policies on expansion, we will push for change for the benefit of all. In this case, the positive far outweighs the negative... some just choose not to open their eyes and see it though.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by K∑_PZ_AEKΔB

Like I stated beforehand, policies and rules constantly change. It is only a matter of time and an agent to bring about the change. If humanity blindly and without question followed policies and rules set forth we would not be as advanced as we are today. Same concept applies here I believe...

"He who rejects change is the engineer of decay, for evolution not only is advantageous for its subjects but is essential for their survival."

So while those in opposition of change hold tight to the current policies on expansion, we will push for change for the benefit of all. In this case, the positive far outweighs the negative... some just choose not to open their eyes and see it though.

On the other hand, if we didn't follow any rules, it'd lead to anarchy. Even if the group successfully expands to the campus, there will be more rules that its members will have to adhere to. Would you encourage them to break those rules, too?

But thanks for the quote

[33girl]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

In case you don't understand and you are already formulating responses in your heads, please keep reading- the IFC can do whatever it wants. IFC is a voluntary organization comprised of the fraternities on campus. IFC does not have to allow Kappa Sigma into IFC. It can write up any rules it would like, and the current members, as they did on March 24th, can hold a closed ballot (secret, and very weak) vote and exclude Kappa Sigma from joining. FGCU, however, as a public institution, is legally bound to provide Kappa Sigma with the same liberties it affords to the other fraternities already on campus, which includes providing meeting space on campus. FGCU cannot infringe upon our civil liberties merely because some of the students on campus (IFC) don't want us on campus. This will be remedied, I promise you. FGCU has no legal ground to stand upon, but I can't get into it any further.

No. Epic fail.

A public institution cannot suspend or discipline students for joining the org, but it is not "legally bound" to provide a group that they didn't invite or approve with meeting spaces, mail privileges etc. Your argument will open the doors to Hitler Youth Corps, Greenpeace, JC Chasez Fan Club demanding space on campuses even if they don't meet the definition of a registered student org.

You obviously aren't in favor of civil liberties for students, since the students in charge of your particular IFC DID vote, and they voted that they didn't want you on campus. If they (as you allege) voted against their national orgs because they thought it was the wrong thing for the campus and because y'all were douches...well, more power to them. I'm sure there are times when students are buffaloed into things they don't want to do by the higher ups, good to see someone standing up to it.

Form the colony as an off campus group and go about your business. Most likely, if you hang in there, you will eventually be approved as a registered student org/IFC member - but not if you keep whining and stamping your feet and singing "don't care how I WANT IT NOW!!"

Honestly, you guys all need to STOP POSTING. You sound like a bunch of spoiled brats.