Abortion... please don't flame!

[browncat]

No Geeky Penguin, I am out of my league, I am waiving a white flag. Didn't want to start any fights, I am not a soap box type of guy. I don't want any enemies and I am sorry. I am glad I got some new points of view. I just wanted to open my mind.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by browncat
You are right. I am sorry. It is hard to look at things from another perspective. I am sorry that I offended you. I tried to make it clear w/ my little "disclaimer". It is a hard thing to argue, and it always ends in a fight. Maybe I will go back to talking about Slamball with the guys. I respect your opinion. Peace.

I respect your opinion as well, and this is a hard topic to really debate because we all have our own opinions and I don't think that any of them are going to change.

[MTSUGURL]

Originally posted by valkyrie
You're saying that it's not okay to kill it. Let me ask you a question: why? Why is it not okay? Can you give me a reason that is not based on religion?

Possible physical damage, feelings of guilt (these have occurred in girls I know that had no religious convictions and were pro-choice who had had abortions, it is a life. What part in it's conception did the baby have? No part. It is a result of an act carried out by the parents. And for the record, religious reasons are as valid as the others.

I look at it like this: I am very careful about birth control. I hope I never, ever get pregnant. I respect your opinion and understand that you and I have differing views, but what I don't understand is why you would be okay with forcing me into having a child I didn't want. Yes, I could give that child up for adoption, but the thing is, I don't think that I could deal with pregnancy. I would have a huge problem with being forced to continue a pregnancy I didn't want. I don't think that it is fair or right for anybody to make a law that would force women to continue pregnancies they didn't want. I completely understand that there are many people out there who believe that abortion is wrong, but why should anyone have the right to tell me what I can and can't do with my own body?

I believe that as soon as you consent to sex, you are accepting the possible risks. Pregnancy is one of these risks. Women are built so that they can carry a child to term, and there are so many changes that occur both physically and emotionally. You seem to be a strong person; why should you not be able to deal with something that much weaker women have had to deal with? I don't think that having to accept consequences of our decisions and actions (action: I have sex, possible consequence: I get pregnant) is forcing someone to do something.

What if there was a way to remove a fetus/embryo from the body of a woman who didn't want it and implant it into another woman's body? Would you do it?

Absolutely, if I didn't want children. No life is being terminated.

I hope none of this was offensive. I do think it is possible for people's opinions and beliefs to change, but only when confronted with hard evidence or when facing the situation themself, and possibly by seeing another close to them go through the situation.

[valkyrie]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL
I do think it is possible for people's opinions and beliefs to change, but only when confronted with hard evidence or when facing the situation themself, and possibly by seeing another close to them go through the situation.

Maybe. My best friend in college (we're not friends any more but for other reasons) had three abortions. I went with her to the first one. Do you want to know the truth? I'm glad she did it. I was friends with her for years after that, and I never saw how she was traumatized by having an abortion. I think that it was the right choice for her, although I do find it more than just a little pathetic that she didn't learn from the first experience and did it not once but twice more.

Whether or not I'm a strong person isn't so much the issue. The issue is that I do not (now or ever) want children. Does that mean that I should never have sex? Seriously, that's just not an option. Like I mentioned before, I would be quite happy to be permanently sterilized if I could find a willing doctor and the money. Any health consequences that resulted from that would be more appealing to me than getting prengant, EVER. I think that with many women, the issue is WHEN to have kids and it's not the end of the world if that happened earlier rather than later, but that's not the case with me.

I think that prohibiting a woman from terminating an unwanted pregnancy IS forcing her to carry a child and give birth.

[IvySpice]

There are only two ways for an abortion decision to be made. The woman can make it. Or the government can make it for her.

When we make statements like, "She should be able to have an abortion under circumstance X, but not circumstance Y," what that means in practice is that in circumstance X, we leave the decision to the woman, and in circumstance Y THE GOVERNMENT makes the decision about who will bear a child and who will not. Is that a power the government ought to have?

Think about the last few presidents. Do you trust them to make personal moral judgments on your behalf? Do you think that they are such extraordinary experts on moral questions that they will do a better job than YOU will?

MTSUgirl, religious reasons are certainly as valid as the others when you are making moral judgments -- for example, when you are making your own decisions, or when you are arguing that abortion is morally wrong.

But religious reasons are NOT as valid as the others when the topic of discussion is what the LAW ought to be. "God says it's bad" is not a valid reason to outlaw something in this country. (After all, my God says abortion is OK, so we're at an impasse.) If you want to convince people who don't share your religious beliefs, you're going to have to come up with something else. Some religions hold that meat is murder; should we pass a law requiring everyone to be vegetarian? Talk public health, talk greater good, talk about the Constitution, or else accept that you're not going to change anybody's mind.

Also, several people pointed out that abortion carries emotional risks...e.g., sadness on what would have been the baby's birthday. Do you think birth moms who give their babies up don't experience guilt and loss? For that matter, don't women who keep their babies take on an enormous emotional burden? If you're pregnant, these are the only options. Every single one carries serious emotional risks.

Ivy, J.D.

[Tom Earp]

I have had TWO! Is there a problem!

You dont even want to Know!

[aephi alum]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL
I believe that as soon as you consent to sex, you are accepting the possible risks.

Then what would you say about rape? The victim did not choose to be raped. That's part of the definition of rape - the victim did not consent.

[MTSUGURL]

If you go back and read my first post in this thread, you will see I definitely know the definition of rape. The whole thing talked about my rape and about me being terrified I was pregnant.

[PM_Mama00]

when facing the situation themself

Exactly. I've almost had to face this situation. I was at the point where I was already making the decision, and the asshole that was involved was going to pay for it.

I respect everyone's viewpoints in here, whether you're for it or against it.

But what Ivy said holds true with me, also. Some people's religious beliefs think it's ok. I'm Catholic, but I would still have gone through with it.

I think I'd be in far more sadness if I carried the baby to term and then gave it up for adoption. I could never do it.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by IvySpice
There are only two ways for an abortion decision to be made. The woman can make it. Or the government can make it for her.

When we make statements like, "She should be able to have an abortion under circumstance X, but not circumstance Y," what that means in practice is that in circumstance X, we leave the decision to the woman, and in circumstance Y THE GOVERNMENT makes the decision about who will bear a child and who will not. Is that a power the government ought to have?

Think about the last few presidents. Do you trust them to make personal moral judgments on your behalf? Do you think that they are such extraordinary experts on moral questions that they will do a better job than YOU will?

MTSUgirl, religious reasons are certainly as valid as the others when you are making moral judgments -- for example, when you are making your own decisions, or when you are arguing that abortion is morally wrong.

But religious reasons are NOT as valid as the others when the topic of discussion is what the LAW ought to be. "God says it's bad" is not a valid reason to outlaw something in this country. (After all, my God says abortion is OK, so we're at an impasse.) If you want to convince people who don't share your religious beliefs, you're going to have to come up with something else. Some religions hold that meat is murder; should we pass a law requiring everyone to be vegetarian? Talk public health, talk greater good, talk about the Constitution, or else accept that you're not going to change anybody's mind.

Also, several people pointed out that abortion carries emotional risks...e.g., sadness on what would have been the baby's birthday. Do you think birth moms who give their babies up don't experience guilt and loss? For that matter, don't women who keep their babies take on an enormous emotional burden? If you're pregnant, these are the only options. Every single one carries serious emotional risks.

Ivy, J.D.

You'd know more than I do!!! Finally, someone who KNOWS the law...

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by browncat
I am a male, if I was having sex and got my (girlfriend/wife/drunken hook-up) pregnant, it would be my responsibilty as well.

You cannot use a group of deadbeat dads as a justification for killing a baby. Just becasue there are a bunch of men out there who are horrible people, it does not give women the right to kill their babies. Men of that nature should be castrated.

Where do you keep coming up with the idea that killing a baby is a right you are given? It isn't your body you are burninig with saline or vaccuming out into the trash, it is another human's. Yes, sex is for the purpose of reproducing. Who is this guy she is involved w/ that would let her have an abortion? He is cool with her killing his kid?

I am about to ask a serious question here, so don't get angry...

Why is it that when women want child support, it is a mutual child, but when they want an abortion, it is "their body"?

P.S.- Is it okay to argue this way? I don't want to get anyone too mad. I just feel it is worth the debate. I am stating my feelings.

Have you or do you have children? If yes, then were these children a "planned" pregnancy? If unplanned, what made you feel the need to "stay" with the woman and be a father to your children?

I ask, because I want to try to understand what goes through a man's mind when he finds out he has just impregnanted a woman that he is not 1) married to, 2) did not want a relationship with or 3) does not want children--ever.

Your observations sound reasonable to me. The fact is, no matter what, you are connected with this "woman" who you got "caught-up" and your genetic material is perpetually passed on and running around for the REST of your natural life...

Many women just cannot bear the look on their "man's" face when it must be told to the guy, that "suprise" you are going to be a father--most especially the pregnancy was unplanned and/or unwanted... I know, that if I was not in a stable, marital relationship and I had gotten pregnant and had to tell some of the fools I was dating, that after all the tears, I just would not want the ultimate in rejection for a man to be pissed off with me because I am carrying something he helped to create...

But then, again, that's a societal "implant" that all of us have been taught under a Judao-Christian control media...

Some women with alternative thinking come with the idea that children are a gift of the Spirit, that all life is blessed and sacred. To remove that blessing, depends upon the spirit of that blessing--for that matter a curse... Remember Hagar--and the Earthly Jeruselam... Ultimately, if one believes in a God and understands the Universe in its totality, then don't you all think that God can stop all things from occuring in the first place??? Have some faith...

[The Grapist]

Originally posted by AKA_Monet
Have you or do you have children? If yes, then were these children a "planned" pregnancy? If unplanned, what made you feel the need to "stay" with the woman and be a father to your children?

I ask, because I want to try to understand what goes through a man's mind when he finds out he has just impregnanted a woman that he is not 1) married to, 2) did not want a relationship with or 3) does not want children--ever.

Your observations sound reasonable to me. The fact is, no matter what, you are connected with this "woman" who you got "caught-up" and your genetic material is perpetually passed on and running around for the REST of your natural life...

Many women just cannot bear the look on their "man's" face when it must be told to the guy, that "suprise" you are going to be a father--most especially the pregnancy was unplanned and/or unwanted... I know, that if I was not in a stable, marital relationship and I had gotten pregnant and had to tell some of the fools I was dating, that after all the tears, I just would not want the ultimate in rejection for a man to be pissed off with me because I am carrying something he helped to create...

But then, again, that's a societal "implant" that all of us have been taught under a Judao-Christian control media...

Some women with alternative thinking come with the idea that children are a gift of the Spirit, that all life is blessed and sacred. To remove that blessing, depends upon the spirit of that blessing--for that matter a curse... Remember Hagar--and the Earthly Jeruselam... Ultimately, if one believes in a God and understands the Universe in its totality, then don't you all think that God can stop all things from occuring in the first place??? Have some faith...

This post has been graped by the Grapist!

[AKA_Monet]

Originally posted by The Grapist
This post has been graped by the Grapist!

Let's make beautiful wine!!!

[aggieAXO]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL
Possible physical damage, feelings of guilt (these have occurred in girls I know that had no religious convictions and were pro-choice who had had abortions, it is a life. What part in it's conception did the baby have? No part. It is a result of an act carried out by the parents. And for the record, religious reasons are as valid as the others.



I believe that as soon as you consent to sex, you are accepting the possible risks. Pregnancy is one of these risks. Women are built so that they can carry a child to term, and there are so many changes that occur both physically and emotionally. You seem to be a strong person; why should you not be able to deal with something that much weaker women have had to deal with? I don't think that having to accept consequences of our decisions and actions (action: I have sex, possible consequence: I get pregnant) is forcing someone to do something.


Absolutely, if I didn't want children. No life is being terminated.

I hope none of this was offensive. I do think it is possible for people's opinions and beliefs to change, but only when confronted with hard evidence or when facing the situation themself, and possibly by seeing another close to them go through the situation.

for some people religious reasons may be valid but not for me. Just b/c if I had gotten pregnant and had an abortion does not mean I am weak. I am strong enough to know what I can handle and what I can't and having a child in college is not something I could handle and I would never judge another woman to be weak if they chose to terminate the pregnancy.

for all of those that are against abortion are you going to adopt children to eliminate or at least decrease the number of children in orphanages (especially minority babies)? If the answer is no then maybe you should re-think your stance.

[Hootie]

I go both ways when it comes to this topic.

I've always been Pro Choice for a variety of reasons. The main reason has always been that I do not believe it is anyone's right to tell me what to do with my body. But having friends and more experiences in my life (as opposed to when I was in high school)...I can clearly see that given the option, I do not think I PERSONALLY would ever have one. However I wouldn't look down on anyone who did. I just don't feel that abortion is a means to birth control.

I've had this similar conversation with my mom, who is also Pro Choice, and my father who is not. And the one thing I said that I think struck a pulse somewhere in my father was this:
Dad, imagine if I or my sister or mom were raped. How would you feel about that? Would that change your mind at all? And for someone who was very much Pro Life he sorta took it all in and I think saw my point. I mean, if any woman is raped why should she be expected to carry that baby to term if it causes her emotional heartache and scrutiny? Is that fair? Not in my eyes.

But once again, these are just my thoughts. People are free to disagree.